6 ms·
The Big Vote Is Today: Will San Francisco Hang on to Twitter?
- rhizome 16y agoHere Twitter is a bunch of whiners trying to use social capital as political capital, "people think we're cool, so you should give us something special." which means the SF Board of Supervisors will likely bend over on this. Total high-school politics. The supes like fancy holiday parties too, after all.
- zachallaun 16y agoI question whether or not you read the article... Still, there’s a lot of groups in the city lobbying against any change in taxes, confusing the issue with “corporate welfare.” I’ve read through some of the materials they are sending out, and while a lot of this is politics, there seems to be a lot of genuine confusion between the nature of the way big companies, small businesses and startups work. This isn't a handout; it's an attempt to fix one of San Francisco's competitive disadvantages. I can't blame Twitter for lobbying against an abusive tax code literally found no where else.
- rhizome 16y agoThat quote is pretty typical TC blathering of third-hand info roughly translating to "one side says X, the other says Y!" Hey, if Twitter doesn't like the SF tax code, they're free to move somewhere else, right? It's not like companies are running away from SF otherwise.
- nickbp 16y agoThey're not seeking to modify the code for everyone, only to get a special exemption for themselves.
- zachallaun 16y agoThe larger goal, however, is to set a precedent for other high-growth pre-IPO's within the city.
- rhizome 16y agoAnd if they can't get the goal, they'll take the handout.
- anigbrowl 16y agoNot true. This change in the tax code is keyed to a particular zone of downtown - Twitter would benefit as a tenant of that area, but so would any other business that moves in there, which is what the city hopes will happen.
- tzs 16y agoCan you actually address any of the points in the article?
- nickbp 16y agoI think the degree of special treatment Twitter is seeking from SF is disproportionate to the number of jobs they actually provide.
- anigbrowl 16y agoIt's the knock-on effect. The city anticipates that in ten years, other businesses attracted by Twitter's presence will create ~3-4,000 more jobs, paying about 25% more, than if Twitter does not move in. The company is big enough for other businesses to coalesce around, whereas without them it's questionable whether enough small businesses would have the critical mass to sustain economic growth. 'We're in the same building as/next door to Twitter' sounds encouraging; 'we're the only tenant on the 13th floor of the Scary Neighborhood Tower' does not.
- tzs 16y agoHow so? Based on the way the payroll tax works there (assuming the article is accurate), I can't see why any startup or rapidly growing business would want to be in San Francisco. It doesn't seem to offer any real advantages over, say, Palo Alto or Sunnyvale or Cupertino or San Jose, and the tax situation sure seems like a significant disadvantage.
- juiceandjuice 16y agoBecause young employees want to live in SF, not Cupertino, Palo Alto, Sunnyvale, or even San Jose.
- tptacek 16y agoThat may be, but the quality of the jobs they provide is also extremely high compared to one of those sweatshops filled with old Asian ladies, with which the SF I came to know and (cough) love was well stocked. High quality jobs improve the tax base, lessen the demands on social services, indirectly increase property values, and create fewer negative externalities (waste, pollution, noise, crime). They also have lower turnover, are less seasonal, and are more likely to result in SF homeowners as opposed to itinerant renters. There's a balance to be struck, to be sure; "hedge fund manager" is a very, very high-quality job, but having 1 hedge fund manager isn't better than having 100 software developers, no matter what the numbers might say.
- oconnore 16y agoThere really is no argument here. Either SF wants to keep Twitter, or they don't. They aren't going to guilt trip Twitter into staying, so there is absolutely no chain of events that ends in Twitter paying the SF payroll tax. Case closed?
- rhizome 16y agoTwitter benefits from having "San Francisco" on their letterhead. "Burlingame" and "Menlo Park" don't really have the same ring to them. Twitter wants to keep San Francisco just as much (if not more) than SF wants Twitter, but I doubt the BoS will call their bluff.
- ceejayoz 16y agoTwitter can put "San Francisco" on their letterhead no matter where they're headquartered. As long as the zip code is correct, it'll get there.
- impendia 16y agoThis is surprisingly well written. Indeed, it persuaded me that this SF stock option tax is probably a bad thing. But the article is wrong in one point: a move to Brisbane would be a painful quality-of-life sacrifice. True, in most major US cities, eight miles doesn't count as a commute, but as a transplant from the suburbs to San Francisco, I can assure you that I appreciate a city where I can walk or take transit most places. Most of my friends and I would take San Francisco over "most major US cities" in a heartbeat. Exorbitant rents and all. Indeed, although I own a car, many of my friends don't, and I wouldn't be surprised if more than a few Twitter employees are now happily doing without. You can't reasonably get to Brisbane without a car.
- hugh3 16y agoAh, but we're not talking about Brisbane vs Marina or SoMA. We're talking about Brisbane vs Tenderloin, and the Tenderloin is really not the most enticing part of the city. The advantage of working in the city is somewhat nullified when the only available lunch options are "grease burger" and "strip club". > You can't reasonably get to Brisbane without a car. Perhaps, but you can't reasonably get to the Tenderloin with a car, so working at Twitter is now inconvenient for those who don't live close to one of the Bay Area's few good public transport options. Besides, most of the big tech companies in Si Valley nowadays run shuttle buses to San Francisco -- there's nothing to stop twitter from doing the same.
- impendia 16y ago> You can't reasonably get to the Tenderloin with a car Good point. > Most of the big tech companies in Si Valley nowadays run shuttle buses to San Francisco Good point again. Maybe there won't be the mad rush on car dealerships that I was predicting. Still, most of the tech people I know who work in Si Valley are annoyed that their jobs are not in SF. My sample is biased (I met all these people in SF), but I do think having your job in the city is a substantial perk.
- rdouble 16y agoThe part of the tenderloin where Twitter is considering moving is 6th and Market. I personally would call this 'Civic Center', not the loin, but that's a different story. In addition to grease burger and strip club, there is also tu luan, Taqueria Cancun, Showdogs, Passion Cafe, John's Burger, and a number of upstart foodie places. If you're a yuppie who drinks 11 dollar coffee, there is Mint Plaza with the 2 million dollar Blue Bottle, and if you're suburban at heart it's about 2 blocks from the Westfield center. Both muni and Bart stop at civic center, as well as 11 buses and the antique F line trolley. The 101 and Oak street feed right into market street via Octavia, but alas, there is nowhere to park.
- simulate 16y agoSince most venture-backed start-ups lose money, they pay little state and federal income tax. San Francisco taxes payroll expense, which is independent of operating profit and can easily become a burden especially since most web businesses have little capital costs and the largest business expense is employee salaries. My 20 person company is financed through cash flow. We pay around $1.5 million in payroll each year and our after-tax profits are around 8% of revenue. San Francisco's payroll tax reduces our after-tax profits to around 6%, which is equivalent to the city charging a 20% income tax on top of the existing Federal and State taxes. This brings our total tax burden to well over 50%.
- anigbrowl 16y agoIt's more complex than that - TC's reporting isn't much better than that from the unions. That part of SF Twitter is likely moving to (Market street between 6th & Van Ness) is really blighted, most business left the area some time ago except for 2-bit retailers, and it has become a skeevy dump over a 20 year period. The tax break is for companies over a certain size who lease space for a minimum of 5 years; Twitter would be one beneficiary, but behind them is SF property management company Shorenstein, who has much more to gain/lose depending on the outcome. Due to long-standing existing plans, several firms/organizations are set to move out of that area this year and next - Bank of America, the CA public utilities commission, SF county health commission. BofA is moving some operations out of town and others into vacant space in its financial district offices, the CPUC has been waiting for construction on its new HQ to be completed, SFCH is also moving into new premises. The upshot of all this is that an already blighted area is anticipated to see the departure of ~8,000 employees to other parts of downtown and 3 million square feet of newly vacant office space - which means imminent death for other local businesses like coffee shops, convenience stores and drugstores which serve the needs of office workers. Besides office workers, the only other traffic in that area comes from the Warfield (a popular live music venue), two tired-looking strip clubs, and a few discount stores selling clothes, cellphones or DJ equipment. Not only is it desperately in need of new business, it's in need of a younger population with different standards and demands. Anyone who's been thinking of opening an office in SF ought to look into it; besides the possible 1.5% stock option exemption for the next 5 years, right now prospective tenants have about as much negotiating power as they will ever have. Monthly rent in that area is under $3/sqft. and although it is tatty at street level, it has the same transit connections as the rest of downtown.
- anigbrowl 16y agoYou can read the city economist's analysis of the proposals here, from the city's incredibly modern website: http://co.sfgov.org/webreports/details.aspx?id=1255 http://co.sfgov.org/webreports/details.aspx?id=1255 I'm watching the SF supervisor's meeting so you don't have to - I'll post the outcome of the vote. They just begun discussing it right now (2:15pm). I anticipate it will pass 8-3 or so. EDIT: passed, 8-3 as predicted. A lot of talk during the meeting about suspending or scrapping the share option tax, and maybe even the payroll tax.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- xseoco 16y agohttp://XSEO.CO http://XSEO.CO - You have a business and you are not familiar? Why not develop on the Internet? Want a website for your business? Want an online store? Want a presentation website for your company? WE HAVE THE SAME PRICE FOR ALL! id messenger: xseoco
- elptacek 16y agoI always wondered why Pixar was in Emeryville. :-)