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> Mozilla has shipped successful products other than Firefox. Rust being a strong example. If you think Rust is a 'successful product' in regards to business g

> Mozilla has shipped successful products other than Firefox. Rust being a strong example. If you think Rust is a 'successful product' in regards to business given the Mozilla Corporation's financial situation, then this is extremely worrying. I would posit that this (one) of the reasons why 250 people had to be let go. Mozilla focusing on 'distractions' rather than anything that makes them money.

gfodor 6y ago
I mean, I started a team of a growing, revenue generating product at Mozilla but I still don't define if something is a successful product based upon if it generates revenue or not. The scope of this thread is if Mozilla has the potential to make successful products (or, things, I guess) beyond Firefox. The OP claims its not possible for the organization to do so. In my mind, showing they have created software that has traction (some revenue generating, some not) disproves this. A PM considers a product successful if it is adopted and loved by users. Other people consider it successful if its team is cash flow positive. Others consider it successful if it bolsters the company brand. The definition of successful I was working with is one that shows Mozilla can ship useful software.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  It is successful if it generates more revenues than went into it and if it strengthens the company that decided to put the time, effort and funds in it in the first place. The problem with your view is that if you don't have a plan on how a product will generate revenue that you are effectively taking a huge gamble that may not pay off. So you'll be 'successful' by your definition while filing for chapter 11, something that Mozilla is flirting with in the medium term if they pursue this route. Only companies with very deep pockets can pursue bets like that, and even then it could hurt. Microsoft Xbox' story is a good example of a bet that worked out, there are many examples of such bets not working out, quite a few of them killing the companies that made the bets.
  - gfodor 6y ago
    It's hard to keep up with all the goal post shifting (the definition of "product", "successful", and so on) - in any case, it's common for companies to start with the problem of delivering user value first, and then figuring out revenue later. One doesn't need a clear plan for revenue when starting out. The project I worked on at Mozilla itself is evidence of this: we had ideas for how to generate revenue for it when we started out, but the one we ended up doing was not on the list since we discovered the opportunity in the process of developing the product.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      I'm not shifting the goal posts, you are but I'm going to bow out at this point. If you want to have a constructive dialog with someone who has been a Mozilla user since day #1 and continues to be so - it's the browser I write this on - today and will likely be one long after Mozilla the company may no longer exist then you're welcome to that. But posting Rust as a product and claiming FireFox is not successful is simply not on the level. FireFox has been amazingly resilient given the onslaught aimed at it, the fact that it still has the marketshare it does is a success in its own right. That that marketshare is dwindling should surprise noone, least of all those working at Mozilla. As for your experience: that is how most products are developed. But Mozilla is not - at present - a company with more than one successful product. Not from my perspective, and likely not from any of the other frequent users of its flagship product.
      - gfodor 6y ago
        Firefox is a successful product. One that is failing. I never claimed it can't be turned around, I was pushing back on the idea that it's self evident that is the solution to Mozilla's problems. (When in fact, that's what Mozilla has been mostly focused on this whole time from a budgetary perspective, and yet here we are.) I should have never said Rust was a product, you're focusing on a word I used you didn't like and have made it a gotcha that let it derail us away from your original claims. I was using it as an example of Mozilla creating something successful other than Firefox. You claimed Mozilla is a one trick pony and is incapable of making anything else successful other than Firefox. This is objectively false. Firefox only generated revenue in the first place due to an ad deal, which is held up by legal concerns. You also completely ignored the other example I gave, the product I worked on and ran the team for, which is also generating revenue for the company. (Revenue which, I might add, is not backed by advertising dollars nor legal blowback.) Take care.

gfodor 6y ago

I mean, I started a team of a growing, revenue generating product at Mozilla but I still don't define if something is a successful product based upon if it generates revenue or not. The scope of this thread is if Mozilla has the potential to make successful products (or, things, I guess) beyond Firefox. The OP claims its not possible for the organization to do so. In my mind, showing they have created software that has traction (some revenue generating, some not) disproves this. A PM considers a product successful if it is adopted and loved by users. Other people consider it successful if its team is cash flow positive. Others consider it successful if it bolsters the company brand. The definition of successful I was working with is one that shows Mozilla can ship useful software.

jacquesm 6y ago
It is successful if it generates more revenues than went into it and if it strengthens the company that decided to put the time, effort and funds in it in the first place. The problem with your view is that if you don't have a plan on how a product will generate revenue that you are effectively taking a huge gamble that may not pay off. So you'll be 'successful' by your definition while filing for chapter 11, something that Mozilla is flirting with in the medium term if they pursue this route. Only companies with very deep pockets can pursue bets like that, and even then it could hurt. Microsoft Xbox' story is a good example of a bet that worked out, there are many examples of such bets not working out, quite a few of them killing the companies that made the bets.
- gfodor 6y ago
  It's hard to keep up with all the goal post shifting (the definition of "product", "successful", and so on) - in any case, it's common for companies to start with the problem of delivering user value first, and then figuring out revenue later. One doesn't need a clear plan for revenue when starting out. The project I worked on at Mozilla itself is evidence of this: we had ideas for how to generate revenue for it when we started out, but the one we ended up doing was not on the list since we discovered the opportunity in the process of developing the product.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    I'm not shifting the goal posts, you are but I'm going to bow out at this point. If you want to have a constructive dialog with someone who has been a Mozilla user since day #1 and continues to be so - it's the browser I write this on - today and will likely be one long after Mozilla the company may no longer exist then you're welcome to that. But posting Rust as a product and claiming FireFox is not successful is simply not on the level. FireFox has been amazingly resilient given the onslaught aimed at it, the fact that it still has the marketshare it does is a success in its own right. That that marketshare is dwindling should surprise noone, least of all those working at Mozilla. As for your experience: that is how most products are developed. But Mozilla is not - at present - a company with more than one successful product. Not from my perspective, and likely not from any of the other frequent users of its flagship product.
    - gfodor 6y ago
      Firefox is a successful product. One that is failing. I never claimed it can't be turned around, I was pushing back on the idea that it's self evident that is the solution to Mozilla's problems. (When in fact, that's what Mozilla has been mostly focused on this whole time from a budgetary perspective, and yet here we are.) I should have never said Rust was a product, you're focusing on a word I used you didn't like and have made it a gotcha that let it derail us away from your original claims. I was using it as an example of Mozilla creating something successful other than Firefox. You claimed Mozilla is a one trick pony and is incapable of making anything else successful other than Firefox. This is objectively false. Firefox only generated revenue in the first place due to an ad deal, which is held up by legal concerns. You also completely ignored the other example I gave, the product I worked on and ran the team for, which is also generating revenue for the company. (Revenue which, I might add, is not backed by advertising dollars nor legal blowback.) Take care.