6 ms·

Firefox is the product of Mozilla mission. But mission is larger than just a browser. I'd love to see it extend to trusted email services and search engines, fo

by kvark 6y ago

Firefox is the product of Mozilla mission. But mission is larger than just a browser. I'd love to see it extend to trusted email services and search engines, for example, but this requires a lot of engineering. If I understand this right, Mozilla tried to focus on FF only, and that didn't pay back. User base is still declining (in relative numbers), revenue stream gets narrower. So Mozilla is trying to transform itself from a browser vendor to a true user agent, assisting the user and protecting them more comprehensively on the web. This transformation is still ongoing.

stingraycharles 6y ago
If they cannot succeed in making Firefox better, the problem is bigger than I thought. So basically, they’ll try to gain income from other sources, because they have given up on increasing the Firefox market share, and anticipate losing the revenue that comes with it?
- takluyver 6y ago
  I don't think they've given up on it - they're still making pretty big technical changes. But they would be daft to bet that they will somehow manage to win back significant market share from Chrome, given the resources Google can put into it.
  - stingraycharles 6y ago
    But if they’re not betting on winning market share from Chrome, then what are they doing that’s worth betting on? From my perspective, the Chrome monoculture is one of the largest threats of the Internet right now, and I don’t see how Mozilla could be relevant without challenging that. But I guess this goes back to Mozilla the corporation, rather than Mozilla the non-profit org. They want to maintain some form of independence, at the cost of making bit bets.
    - takluyver 6y ago
      To take one example, Mozilla's 'privacy not included' guides. They rate hardware and software products for privacy protections. This is a topic that people care about in the abstract but couldn't easily make concrete decisions on. You may disagree with how they do it, but it's definitely relevant. I get the feeling from this thread that some people think the only conceivable purpose of Mozilla is to maintain an independent browser, and if they can't do that they may as well shut down. Mozilla sees itself in a larger role of supporting a healthy internet, and kind of has to think about what else that might mean besides an independent browser.
      - stingraycharles 6y ago
        > I get the feeling from this thread that some people think the only conceivable purpose of Mozilla is to maintain an independent browser, and if they can't do that they may as well shut down This is exactly how I feel about Mozilla indeed. Their only relevance to me is their browser, I don’t care much about the rest. If a “privacy not included guide” is the best example of other value they add, this strongly confirms it from my point of view.
        takluyver 6y ago
        Perhaps the disconnect is that Mozilla's goals are not just the bits you care about. If all you're saying is that they should double down on Firefox and ignore everything else because that's what you want, that's not a very interesting argument. Even if you believe Firefox is the only goal, though... Mozilla needs money to develop it. Despite all the technical effort that's gone into it in recent years, Firefox is still losing marketshare. Maybe there's some killer feature that will turn it around. But so far tracking protection doesn't seem to have done it, and there's not that many other features that Google can't copy. So if you still want Firefox to be useful in 10 years, there's a real chance it will be need to be subsidised by something like Mozilla VPN.
        stingraycharles 6y ago
- kvark 6y ago
  > If they cannot succeed in making Firefox better They can make Firefox better, and have been doing that a lot. The problem is - it doesn't make the users to come. Google, Apple, Microsoft - all own platforms that people use, and they heavily push the users towards their own browsers.
  - stingraycharles 6y ago
    I think that point is not as big as you think it is. Remember how big Firefox was back in the day? This was despite Microsoft pushing IE and bundling it with Windows. Users nowadays have been conditioned that it’s perfectly normal to download Chrome after installing Windows / buying a new computer. If Google can do this, why not Mozilla?
    - calcifer 6y ago
      > If Google can do this, why not Mozilla? I think you are having a very selective memory. Since day one, Google put Chrome ads everywhere including on the Google home page when you are visiting from Firefox and there is no way to permanently disable them. If you are aware of a similiar marketing outreach that Mozilla could do I'm sure they would love to hear about it!
      - jacquesm 6y ago
        What Google did - and does - should land them in some seriously hot anti-trust water. But they'll get away with it, just as Microsoft got away with it. "This is not the monopoly you are looking for...".
        vikramkr 6y ago
        I still don't get the concept of antitrust suits with browsers. Unless the system literally prevents you from installing a competing browser, you can always just go and download the competing browser and use it. Theres nothing stopping you from doing that, where's the monopoly power here?
- modo_mario 6y ago
  "Mozilla's contract with Google to include Google as the default search provider inside Firefox is set to expire later this year, and the contract has not been renewed" Aka the browser will no longer bring them any money to sustain themselves. It's sad but we're basically seeing a chromium near-monopoly coming.
  - andromeduck 6y ago
    Not renewed yet or will not be renewed?
    - jaharios 6y ago
      Yet
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

by kvark 6y ago

stingraycharles 6y ago

If they cannot succeed in making Firefox better, the problem is bigger than I thought. So basically, they’ll try to gain income from other sources, because they have given up on increasing the Firefox market share, and anticipate losing the revenue that comes with it?

takluyver 6y ago
I don't think they've given up on it - they're still making pretty big technical changes. But they would be daft to bet that they will somehow manage to win back significant market share from Chrome, given the resources Google can put into it.
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  But if they’re not betting on winning market share from Chrome, then what are they doing that’s worth betting on? From my perspective, the Chrome monoculture is one of the largest threats of the Internet right now, and I don’t see how Mozilla could be relevant without challenging that. But I guess this goes back to Mozilla the corporation, rather than Mozilla the non-profit org. They want to maintain some form of independence, at the cost of making bit bets.
  - takluyver 6y ago
    To take one example, Mozilla's 'privacy not included' guides. They rate hardware and software products for privacy protections. This is a topic that people care about in the abstract but couldn't easily make concrete decisions on. You may disagree with how they do it, but it's definitely relevant. I get the feeling from this thread that some people think the only conceivable purpose of Mozilla is to maintain an independent browser, and if they can't do that they may as well shut down. Mozilla sees itself in a larger role of supporting a healthy internet, and kind of has to think about what else that might mean besides an independent browser.
    - stingraycharles 6y ago
      > I get the feeling from this thread that some people think the only conceivable purpose of Mozilla is to maintain an independent browser, and if they can't do that they may as well shut down This is exactly how I feel about Mozilla indeed. Their only relevance to me is their browser, I don’t care much about the rest. If a “privacy not included guide” is the best example of other value they add, this strongly confirms it from my point of view.
      - takluyver 6y ago
        Perhaps the disconnect is that Mozilla's goals are not just the bits you care about. If all you're saying is that they should double down on Firefox and ignore everything else because that's what you want, that's not a very interesting argument. Even if you believe Firefox is the only goal, though... Mozilla needs money to develop it. Despite all the technical effort that's gone into it in recent years, Firefox is still losing marketshare. Maybe there's some killer feature that will turn it around. But so far tracking protection doesn't seem to have done it, and there's not that many other features that Google can't copy. So if you still want Firefox to be useful in 10 years, there's a real chance it will be need to be subsidised by something like Mozilla VPN.
        stingraycharles 6y ago
kvark 6y ago
> If they cannot succeed in making Firefox better They can make Firefox better, and have been doing that a lot. The problem is - it doesn't make the users to come. Google, Apple, Microsoft - all own platforms that people use, and they heavily push the users towards their own browsers.
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  I think that point is not as big as you think it is. Remember how big Firefox was back in the day? This was despite Microsoft pushing IE and bundling it with Windows. Users nowadays have been conditioned that it’s perfectly normal to download Chrome after installing Windows / buying a new computer. If Google can do this, why not Mozilla?
  - calcifer 6y ago
    > If Google can do this, why not Mozilla? I think you are having a very selective memory. Since day one, Google put Chrome ads everywhere including on the Google home page when you are visiting from Firefox and there is no way to permanently disable them. If you are aware of a similiar marketing outreach that Mozilla could do I'm sure they would love to hear about it!
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      What Google did - and does - should land them in some seriously hot anti-trust water. But they'll get away with it, just as Microsoft got away with it. "This is not the monopoly you are looking for...".
      - vikramkr 6y ago
        I still don't get the concept of antitrust suits with browsers. Unless the system literally prevents you from installing a competing browser, you can always just go and download the competing browser and use it. Theres nothing stopping you from doing that, where's the monopoly power here?
modo_mario 6y ago
"Mozilla's contract with Google to include Google as the default search provider inside Firefox is set to expire later this year, and the contract has not been renewed" Aka the browser will no longer bring them any money to sustain themselves. It's sad but we're basically seeing a chromium near-monopoly coming.
- andromeduck 6y ago
  Not renewed yet or will not be renewed?
  - jaharios 6y ago
    Yet

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]