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Non-commercial transactions of information can't be regulated. US advertisers can be banned from doing business with tiktok but it is a free app. If someone in

Non-commercial transactions of information can't be regulated. US advertisers can be banned from doing business with tiktok but it is a free app. If someone in China called you and read out loud every byte in the tiktok app and you wrote it down in notepad and saved it,is that speech or commerce? It is speech in my opinion. They can regulate commerce but for software and crypto they can't regulate the transfer of information,they can only regulate commercial activity with that information. Commerce such as huawei/zte physical equipment sales is dfferent than software. They can't ban software just like how they can't ban a book. They can ban book sales or a book reading service but storage, avaipability and free transfer of information cannot be banned. They can't ban someone from mailing you the communist manifesto for free as a book or handwritten letter, so they can't ban a communist manifesto app download or punish anyone for facilitating that transfer.

bhupy 6y ago
But we're not talking strictly about non-commercial transactions. Prohibiting US advertisers from doing business with TikTok removes a lot of incentive for TikTok to operate in the US. > US advertisers can be banned from doing business with tiktok but it is a free app. In addition, App Store providers can be banned from allowing ByteDance to submit it. > They can ban book sales or a book reading service but storage, avaipability and free transfer of information cannot be banned. The free transfer of software information is already "banned" through copyright law. Software piracy is technically simply the capital-free transfer of bits of data, and that can and is controlled by the US government. > They can't ban someone from mailing you the communist manifesto for free as a book or handwritten letter, so they can't ban a communist manifesto app download or punish anyone for facilitating that transfer. The argument is not whether they can ban someone from mailing you a copy of the communist manifest, it's whether they can ban an American retailer from receiving copies of it from a sanctioned supplier. That's what the executive order appears to be targeting.
save_ferris 6y ago
> Non-commercial transactions of information can't be regulated Sure they can. Look at HIPAA, COPPA, government classification, etc. I could call a family member up at an intelligence agency and ask what kinds of stuff they're investigating, but they'd surely be committing a crime by sharing that information with me, regardless of whether or not money changed hands. The other counterargument to this is that ByteDance only has commercial intentions with the data it gathers on users. It's not a non-profit trying to feed or clothe the needy, it exists purely as a commercial enterprise, meaning that any and all information they gather will either directly or indirectly used for commerce.
- badrabbit 6y ago
  That's because you don't own the information in all those cases. Privileged information,patient information,etc... If you are the originator of the information it is your speech. Your spy buddies can't share information because it is privileged amd classified (not free speech). I am not against banning bytedance's commercial activity. But, the reasoning needs to make it clear that the app is not banned, sharing the app is not illegal and what is restricted is bytedance's ability to engage in commerce. You can ban their commercial exploitation of information but you cannot ban the app itself or americans's ability to transmit information to them. You can revoke theie business license and ban commercial activity with them.
  - save_ferris 6y ago
    > If you are the originator of the information it is your speech. This technically isn't always true either. I write software for a company and even though it comes from my brain, I still don't own it and I can't share it. I'm sure in the case of TikTok, users probably don't own their data either, the company does. > You can ban their commercial exploitation of information but you cannot ban the app itself or americans's ability to transmit information to them. What would be the point of ByteDance even keeping the app up if they can't monetize it? The act of users transmitting information inherently adds data to TikTok's database, which has financial value. It doesn't make sense for a company to just keep an app like that up and running while promising not to make money off of it. The compute costs alone must be enormous for an app like TikTok since they have to optimize and cache all of that video. Why would a business agree to keep operating while promising not to profit? That doesn't make sense to me.
true_religion 6y ago
Effectively no one treats computer software as simple information. But even if that were the case, you can ban sharing knowledge under obscenity clauses, national security clauses, or because it incite violence. TikTok is being banned as a threat to national security, because having your preeminent communications tool run by a foreign government is inane, unless you are or want to become a colony of that government.
- badrabbit 6y ago
  We are not talking about revoking tiktok's business license. If I host the tiktok app on a server and someone downloads it, would we be breaking the law? So then it's not bytedance's activity you are restricting but americans'. You can't yell fire in a crowd but you can yell fire in a crowd if the crowd is consents to it and you can ban the provable intent to cause disruption but you can't ban the word "fire" from being yelled in a crowd. You can ban the company but not the information in the app. Software is information/speech until executed by hardware.
  - true_religion 6y ago
    Are you basically saying that TikTok the app isn’t being banned, but just made hard to find or use?
    - badrabbit 6y ago
      I am saying the business and finance of tiktok can be regulated but not the app itself. Appstores can ban it on their own but a law banning an app from an appstore is equivalent to a law banning a book from a library
      - true_religion 6y ago
        I think you are trying to say that books can’t be banned... but books can legally be banned from libraries. For example historically the US has banned books for being sexually obscene, demeaning to a particular group, or liable to foster communist sympathies.
vorpalhex 6y ago
> If someone in China called you and read out loud every byte in the tiktok app and you wrote it down in notepad and saved it,is that speech or commerce? Nobody cares about the source code. Everyone cares about sending data back to the CCP. If Tik Tok/ByteDance wants to stop being a tool of the CCP and engaging in the persecution of Uigher Muslims, then they can go back to offering us an app with funny dances. > They can regulate commerce but for software and crypto they can't regulate the transfer of information,they can only regulate commercial activity with that information Crypto exports are regulated. > They can't ban someone from mailing you the communist manifesto for free as a book or handwritten letter Actually at one point sending pornography through the USPS WAS banned. Typically political speech gets stronger protections though. > so they can't ban a communist manifesto app download or punish anyone for facilitating that transfer. The issue isn't spreading the communist manifesto. It's human rights abuses of a religious minority including forced sterilization - https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/china-conducting-mass-sterilization-muslim-minorities-amount-genocide/story?id=71519132 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/china-conducting-mass-steril...

bhupy 6y ago

But we're not talking strictly about non-commercial transactions. Prohibiting US advertisers from doing business with TikTok removes a lot of incentive for TikTok to operate in the US. > US advertisers can be banned from doing business with tiktok but it is a free app. In addition, App Store providers can be banned from allowing ByteDance to submit it. > They can ban book sales or a book reading service but storage, avaipability and free transfer of information cannot be banned. The free transfer of software information is already "banned" through copyright law. Software piracy is technically simply the capital-free transfer of bits of data, and that can and is controlled by the US government. > They can't ban someone from mailing you the communist manifesto for free as a book or handwritten letter, so they can't ban a communist manifesto app download or punish anyone for facilitating that transfer. The argument is not whether they can ban someone from mailing you a copy of the communist manifest, it's whether they can ban an American retailer from receiving copies of it from a sanctioned supplier. That's what the executive order appears to be targeting.

save_ferris 6y ago

> Non-commercial transactions of information can't be regulated Sure they can. Look at HIPAA, COPPA, government classification, etc. I could call a family member up at an intelligence agency and ask what kinds of stuff they're investigating, but they'd surely be committing a crime by sharing that information with me, regardless of whether or not money changed hands. The other counterargument to this is that ByteDance only has commercial intentions with the data it gathers on users. It's not a non-profit trying to feed or clothe the needy, it exists purely as a commercial enterprise, meaning that any and all information they gather will either directly or indirectly used for commerce.

badrabbit 6y ago
That's because you don't own the information in all those cases. Privileged information,patient information,etc... If you are the originator of the information it is your speech. Your spy buddies can't share information because it is privileged amd classified (not free speech). I am not against banning bytedance's commercial activity. But, the reasoning needs to make it clear that the app is not banned, sharing the app is not illegal and what is restricted is bytedance's ability to engage in commerce. You can ban their commercial exploitation of information but you cannot ban the app itself or americans's ability to transmit information to them. You can revoke theie business license and ban commercial activity with them.
- save_ferris 6y ago
  > If you are the originator of the information it is your speech. This technically isn't always true either. I write software for a company and even though it comes from my brain, I still don't own it and I can't share it. I'm sure in the case of TikTok, users probably don't own their data either, the company does. > You can ban their commercial exploitation of information but you cannot ban the app itself or americans's ability to transmit information to them. What would be the point of ByteDance even keeping the app up if they can't monetize it? The act of users transmitting information inherently adds data to TikTok's database, which has financial value. It doesn't make sense for a company to just keep an app like that up and running while promising not to make money off of it. The compute costs alone must be enormous for an app like TikTok since they have to optimize and cache all of that video. Why would a business agree to keep operating while promising not to profit? That doesn't make sense to me.

true_religion 6y ago

Effectively no one treats computer software as simple information. But even if that were the case, you can ban sharing knowledge under obscenity clauses, national security clauses, or because it incite violence. TikTok is being banned as a threat to national security, because having your preeminent communications tool run by a foreign government is inane, unless you are or want to become a colony of that government.

badrabbit 6y ago
We are not talking about revoking tiktok's business license. If I host the tiktok app on a server and someone downloads it, would we be breaking the law? So then it's not bytedance's activity you are restricting but americans'. You can't yell fire in a crowd but you can yell fire in a crowd if the crowd is consents to it and you can ban the provable intent to cause disruption but you can't ban the word "fire" from being yelled in a crowd. You can ban the company but not the information in the app. Software is information/speech until executed by hardware.
- true_religion 6y ago
  Are you basically saying that TikTok the app isn’t being banned, but just made hard to find or use?
  - badrabbit 6y ago
    I am saying the business and finance of tiktok can be regulated but not the app itself. Appstores can ban it on their own but a law banning an app from an appstore is equivalent to a law banning a book from a library
    - true_religion 6y ago
      I think you are trying to say that books can’t be banned... but books can legally be banned from libraries. For example historically the US has banned books for being sexually obscene, demeaning to a particular group, or liable to foster communist sympathies.

vorpalhex 6y ago

> If someone in China called you and read out loud every byte in the tiktok app and you wrote it down in notepad and saved it,is that speech or commerce? Nobody cares about the source code. Everyone cares about sending data back to the CCP. If Tik Tok/ByteDance wants to stop being a tool of the CCP and engaging in the persecution of Uigher Muslims, then they can go back to offering us an app with funny dances. > They can regulate commerce but for software and crypto they can't regulate the transfer of information,they can only regulate commercial activity with that information Crypto exports are regulated. > They can't ban someone from mailing you the communist manifesto for free as a book or handwritten letter Actually at one point sending pornography through the USPS WAS banned. Typically political speech gets stronger protections though. > so they can't ban a communist manifesto app download or punish anyone for facilitating that transfer. The issue isn't spreading the communist manifesto. It's human rights abuses of a religious minority including forced sterilization - https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/china-conducting-mass-sterilization-muslim-minorities-amount-genocide/story?id=71519132 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/china-conducting-mass-steril...