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It is a bit weird that cryptocurrency folks talk about "disrupting" financial system when they actually talk about rolling monetary policy back to about middle

It is a bit weird that cryptocurrency folks talk about "disrupting" financial system when they actually talk about rolling monetary policy back to about middle ages. Come up with a currency anyone can create and there you have a real disruption.

ogogmad 6y ago
More modern doesn't necessarily mean better. That's a fallacy. For instance, it's possible that a currency based on long chains of debt is prone to massive blow-ups. That's modern day fiat currency. In contrast, cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin are not based on debt. > Come up with a currency anyone can create and there you have a real disruption. If I've understood you correctly, something like that does exist. See Ethereum and its ERC-20 tokens.
- Legogris 6y ago
  If I interpret beefield correctly, they're not talking about being able to create new currencies but rather a currency that anyone can mint. Here's an interesting one, an attempt at decentralized UBI where each individual gets issued individual "coloured coins" and participants accept currency based on a web of trust: https://handbook.joincircles.net/about/whitepaper.html https://handbook.joincircles.net/about/whitepaper.html I think this direction is very worth exploring. Today fiat currency is generated through creation of debt between banks. Most cryptocurrency is generated through validation of transactions (be it PoW or PoS). The idea of moving currency minting down to individuals in a way that can maintain a sustainable inflation is very attractive to me. The really hard part is squaring the triangle of no privileged centralized parties with censorship capabilities while neither being vulnerable to sybil attacks or locking out disenfranchised minorities from the economy. Circles is the only serious attempt at that I've seen and I'd love to see more innovation and critical analysis in this venue.
  - intotheabyss 6y ago
    You can create currencies that anyone can mint on Ethereum.
    - Legogris 6y ago
      That's the trivial part, but without the conditions I laid out above they're neither useful nor interesting, at least to me. FWIW Circles is implemented on Ethereum, if you didn't click the link.
    - beefield 6y ago
      Interesting. How is the value of that currency maintained so that it actually would be an usable currency?
  - giancarlostoro 6y ago
    There is a GNU currency that is like that but I dont understand how it will ever work with the "honor system" lol I dont see whats stopping me from poisoning the well.
    - antsoul 6y ago
      GNU Taler is electronic money, not a currency. Neutral, every one can make its own currency. Transaction is secure (trust in the e-money) because of GNUnet; it even addressed the Sybil attacks concerns. Trust on the currency comes from real life trust. A bank for the Euro. A human for a novel human-made currency. Then, Exchanges that trust 2 different currencies can buy/sell those currencies.
  - beefield 6y ago
    Exactly this.
  - vervez 6y ago
    I'm not an economist but this also seems like an indirect, peer to peer, way to establish 'credit' of an individual, rather than relying on centralized institutions with dubious security practices, like Equifax. Is this obvious or has someone already thought of this and I'm being dumb? I don't typically hear about this type of application of digital currencies in mainstream media but it sounds interesting in certain applications of peer-determined credit.
biolurker1 6y ago
Your last sentence is possible since about 2015
gwbas1c 6y ago
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M22NTCT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_9eOmFbJKDZM99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M22NTCT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_9eOm... It's a bit of a hard read, but the author proves that Bitcoin is pushed by far right activists who have extreme views of how money should work.
- atom-morgan 6y ago
  I, and many others I know, aren't far right and support it. We just don't want the government to print money at will.
  - gwbas1c 6y ago
    That is a far right viewpoint. Modern economics requires a government to actively maintain a steady value in its currency. Removing this control is, by definition, far right.
- Legogris 6y ago
  Bitcoin is also pushed by far-left extremists, anarchists, nihilists, centrists and adherents to loads of other schools of thought. From the BTC-maximilists I've come to known, some very active in the community, I'd say it's not representative of BTC proponents in general. Though I don't think I'd like the top BTC whales of today to effectively run the global economy.
sneak 6y ago
Isn’t that the point of an ERC-20, and the reason that Ethereum is still relevant?
- giancarlostoro 6y ago
  I would argue not the only reason Ethereum is still relevant but definitely one of the solid reasons why.
Kaze404 6y ago
As far as I understand complementary currencies are not supposed to disrupt anything (as their purpose isn't to replace fiat), not a new idea and in no way linked to crypto currencies. Crypto comes into play to support a more modern and secure transactional system to an idea that's already existed for decades.
googthrowaway42 6y ago
Are you aware of the fact there are thousands of cryptocurrencies?
itsoktocry 6y ago
>Come up with a currency anyone can create and there you have a real disruption. Indeed. One of the most bizarre arguments coming from the crypto-world is "there's a finite amount!". Why would you want your currency to be limited?
- WorldMaker 6y ago
  Scarcity creates an illusion of value "at rest". Currencies aren't very useful "at rest", though. (As entertaining as it is to imagine to go diving into a Bank Vault Scrooge McDuck-style, it isn't very practical in reality.) It's in how they flow that inter-personal value happens. I feel like one of these days we'll truly discover an economic calculus based on the second and third derivatives of "value", and maybe scarcity is holding us back. (I often use an electrical circuit analogy. Our conception of wealth is "instantaneous voltage", and while high potential voltage sometimes has its uses in some types of circuits, it's the wattage/amperage that does real work over time.)
bserge 6y ago
> currency anyone can create and there you have a real disruption. Why? Anyone can make their own currency. Whether electronic or quite literally, on a printer. No one's going to take it.

ogogmad 6y ago

More modern doesn't necessarily mean better. That's a fallacy. For instance, it's possible that a currency based on long chains of debt is prone to massive blow-ups. That's modern day fiat currency. In contrast, cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin are not based on debt. > Come up with a currency anyone can create and there you have a real disruption. If I've understood you correctly, something like that does exist. See Ethereum and its ERC-20 tokens.

Legogris 6y ago
If I interpret beefield correctly, they're not talking about being able to create new currencies but rather a currency that anyone can mint. Here's an interesting one, an attempt at decentralized UBI where each individual gets issued individual "coloured coins" and participants accept currency based on a web of trust: https://handbook.joincircles.net/about/whitepaper.html https://handbook.joincircles.net/about/whitepaper.html I think this direction is very worth exploring. Today fiat currency is generated through creation of debt between banks. Most cryptocurrency is generated through validation of transactions (be it PoW or PoS). The idea of moving currency minting down to individuals in a way that can maintain a sustainable inflation is very attractive to me. The really hard part is squaring the triangle of no privileged centralized parties with censorship capabilities while neither being vulnerable to sybil attacks or locking out disenfranchised minorities from the economy. Circles is the only serious attempt at that I've seen and I'd love to see more innovation and critical analysis in this venue.
- intotheabyss 6y ago
  You can create currencies that anyone can mint on Ethereum.
  - Legogris 6y ago
    That's the trivial part, but without the conditions I laid out above they're neither useful nor interesting, at least to me. FWIW Circles is implemented on Ethereum, if you didn't click the link.
  - beefield 6y ago
    Interesting. How is the value of that currency maintained so that it actually would be an usable currency?
- giancarlostoro 6y ago
  There is a GNU currency that is like that but I dont understand how it will ever work with the "honor system" lol I dont see whats stopping me from poisoning the well.
  - antsoul 6y ago
    GNU Taler is electronic money, not a currency. Neutral, every one can make its own currency. Transaction is secure (trust in the e-money) because of GNUnet; it even addressed the Sybil attacks concerns. Trust on the currency comes from real life trust. A bank for the Euro. A human for a novel human-made currency. Then, Exchanges that trust 2 different currencies can buy/sell those currencies.
- beefield 6y ago
  Exactly this.
- vervez 6y ago
  I'm not an economist but this also seems like an indirect, peer to peer, way to establish 'credit' of an individual, rather than relying on centralized institutions with dubious security practices, like Equifax. Is this obvious or has someone already thought of this and I'm being dumb? I don't typically hear about this type of application of digital currencies in mainstream media but it sounds interesting in certain applications of peer-determined credit.

biolurker1 6y ago

Your last sentence is possible since about 2015

gwbas1c 6y ago

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M22NTCT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_9eOmFbJKDZM99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M22NTCT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_9eOm... It's a bit of a hard read, but the author proves that Bitcoin is pushed by far right activists who have extreme views of how money should work.

atom-morgan 6y ago
I, and many others I know, aren't far right and support it. We just don't want the government to print money at will.
- gwbas1c 6y ago
  That is a far right viewpoint. Modern economics requires a government to actively maintain a steady value in its currency. Removing this control is, by definition, far right.
Legogris 6y ago
Bitcoin is also pushed by far-left extremists, anarchists, nihilists, centrists and adherents to loads of other schools of thought. From the BTC-maximilists I've come to known, some very active in the community, I'd say it's not representative of BTC proponents in general. Though I don't think I'd like the top BTC whales of today to effectively run the global economy.

sneak 6y ago

Isn’t that the point of an ERC-20, and the reason that Ethereum is still relevant?

giancarlostoro 6y ago
I would argue not the only reason Ethereum is still relevant but definitely one of the solid reasons why.

Kaze404 6y ago

As far as I understand complementary currencies are not supposed to disrupt anything (as their purpose isn't to replace fiat), not a new idea and in no way linked to crypto currencies. Crypto comes into play to support a more modern and secure transactional system to an idea that's already existed for decades.

googthrowaway42 6y ago

Are you aware of the fact there are thousands of cryptocurrencies?

itsoktocry 6y ago

>Come up with a currency anyone can create and there you have a real disruption. Indeed. One of the most bizarre arguments coming from the crypto-world is "there's a finite amount!". Why would you want your currency to be limited?

WorldMaker 6y ago
Scarcity creates an illusion of value "at rest". Currencies aren't very useful "at rest", though. (As entertaining as it is to imagine to go diving into a Bank Vault Scrooge McDuck-style, it isn't very practical in reality.) It's in how they flow that inter-personal value happens. I feel like one of these days we'll truly discover an economic calculus based on the second and third derivatives of "value", and maybe scarcity is holding us back. (I often use an electrical circuit analogy. Our conception of wealth is "instantaneous voltage", and while high potential voltage sometimes has its uses in some types of circuits, it's the wattage/amperage that does real work over time.)

bserge 6y ago

> currency anyone can create and there you have a real disruption. Why? Anyone can make their own currency. Whether electronic or quite literally, on a printer. No one's going to take it.