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'If americans want to be spied on by China in exchange for being able to use tiktok it's their right' I think you're argument breaks down here. I don't think t

'If americans want to be spied on by China in exchange for being able to use tiktok it's their right' I think you're argument breaks down here. I don't think that handimf over information to a foreign government is a right. I was unable to Google for a definitive answer, but maybe a more knowledgeable person could chime in. The US already has export restrictions on knowledge ( for example encryption ) to foreign governments.

logicchains 6y ago
>The US already has export restrictions on knowledge ( for example encryption ) to foreign governments. And normally people on this site deride such things as ridiculous (and actively worked around bans on exporting encryption), but when they find out Big Bad China might see their dance videos and lip synching suddenly they're happy to crush the free exchange of information.
- codemonkey-zeta 6y ago
  I'm going to put on my tinfoil hat for a moment and say that you might be underplaying the power of TikTok. It's not just that China has peoples' dance videos. The app has complete adoption by the teenage generation. When many high-profile hacks begin with simple social engineering, all it takes is blackmail attempts on the sons and daughters of diplomats and CEOs threatening to reveal/promote to friends either private or falsified(deep fake?) data/videos to get at least some percentage of compliance. Of course we should protect encryption and be smart and diligent when protecting our liberties, but I'm scared of TikTok, and I don't think that fear is unjustified.
  - badrabbit 6y ago
    I don't care how justified your fears are. I also have fears about facebook being abused by republicans and russia, and google being abused by democrats but I am not calling for their ban and I am not calling for telegram's ban either. You need to educate your fellow citizens or pressure appstore owners (google and apple) to delist tiktok. That's how a free nation functions, through dialogue not paranoia and treating the law as a suggestion. Don't sacrifice my liberty to alleviate your fears. If we follow your logic let's equally apply the law and ban telegram,facebook/whatsapp/instagram,google and snapchat as well. And please,let the US cease all commerce with China if they are a hostile enemy government, let's stop financing them. Unless of course like always this is about american greed and not security. Injustice is not tolerable even if security is at stake. If you claim this is just and lawful, apply it equally to all other foreign and domestic apps that can be abused similar to tiktok both by domestic and foreign forces. I have no reason to fear China more than a domestic political party that is eager to start race wars and concentration camps. The law must be fair and it must be applied equally. That is a fundamental concept where it's violation means invalidation and collapse of all legal and legitimate goverment and legal activity.
    - codemonkey-zeta 6y ago
      > Don't sacrifice my liberty to alleviate your fears. Don't be melodramatic. You sacrifice your liberty for the sake of security all the time, and it isn't necessarily a bad thing. > You need to educate your fellow citizens or pressure appstore owners (google and apple) to delist tiktok. This is an unconvincing solution because of the subversive nature of the power of TikTok. We already see that people brush this off as "not my problem. I don't care if China has my data". You don't have to trust domestic parties to agree that there is a legitimate security threat from Chinese controlled TikTok which must be addressed. > If you claim this is just and lawful, apply it equally to all other foreign and domestic apps that can be abused similar to tiktok both by domestic and foreign forces. This is ostensibly the point of the "clean network". Whether or not that particular solution is adequate or even appropriate remains to be seen, but it certainly seems aimed at exactly that problem.
- giancarlostoro 6y ago
  > but when they find out Big Bad China might see their dance videos and lip synching suddenly they're happy to crush the free exchange of information. This isn't what they even care about. It's all the telemetry and spying the app does, like copying your clipboard consistently (seriously how this is allowed anymore by iOS or Android is beyond me). What if you selected some proprietary information and later your kid opens up TikTok cause they love using your phone, and voila some proprietary information is copied on there, going to who knows where. Something like TikTok makes corporate espionage quite possible given its popularity. I can't imagine what other things the app is doing.
badrabbit 6y ago
Encryption is seen as a tool and a weapon,not as speech. You have the right to choose who you communicate with. Handing over your information to a foreign government,even an enemy state at war is your right. What you don't have a right to do is to share confidential information or information that is not about yourself that will aid a foreign power. The key here is that the information id about you and no one else, this information belongs to you and you have a right to communicate with foreign entities (freedom of speech does not constrain you to speak only to citizens in america). Freedom of speech applies because you are on US soil, not because tiktok is or isn't. On that same note, you get to tell foreign governments about your experience in the US, if you are persecuted or in fear for your life and your government can't protect you (to seek asylum for example). So I'd say communication with foreign countries and governments about unpriviledged information and first hand accounts is a right. Unless of course you live in china or korea in which case you can't make your government look bad or share information about internal conditions (such as starving population).

logicchains 6y ago

>The US already has export restrictions on knowledge ( for example encryption ) to foreign governments. And normally people on this site deride such things as ridiculous (and actively worked around bans on exporting encryption), but when they find out Big Bad China might see their dance videos and lip synching suddenly they're happy to crush the free exchange of information.

codemonkey-zeta 6y ago
I'm going to put on my tinfoil hat for a moment and say that you might be underplaying the power of TikTok. It's not just that China has peoples' dance videos. The app has complete adoption by the teenage generation. When many high-profile hacks begin with simple social engineering, all it takes is blackmail attempts on the sons and daughters of diplomats and CEOs threatening to reveal/promote to friends either private or falsified(deep fake?) data/videos to get at least some percentage of compliance. Of course we should protect encryption and be smart and diligent when protecting our liberties, but I'm scared of TikTok, and I don't think that fear is unjustified.
- badrabbit 6y ago
  I don't care how justified your fears are. I also have fears about facebook being abused by republicans and russia, and google being abused by democrats but I am not calling for their ban and I am not calling for telegram's ban either. You need to educate your fellow citizens or pressure appstore owners (google and apple) to delist tiktok. That's how a free nation functions, through dialogue not paranoia and treating the law as a suggestion. Don't sacrifice my liberty to alleviate your fears. If we follow your logic let's equally apply the law and ban telegram,facebook/whatsapp/instagram,google and snapchat as well. And please,let the US cease all commerce with China if they are a hostile enemy government, let's stop financing them. Unless of course like always this is about american greed and not security. Injustice is not tolerable even if security is at stake. If you claim this is just and lawful, apply it equally to all other foreign and domestic apps that can be abused similar to tiktok both by domestic and foreign forces. I have no reason to fear China more than a domestic political party that is eager to start race wars and concentration camps. The law must be fair and it must be applied equally. That is a fundamental concept where it's violation means invalidation and collapse of all legal and legitimate goverment and legal activity.
  - codemonkey-zeta 6y ago
    > Don't sacrifice my liberty to alleviate your fears. Don't be melodramatic. You sacrifice your liberty for the sake of security all the time, and it isn't necessarily a bad thing. > You need to educate your fellow citizens or pressure appstore owners (google and apple) to delist tiktok. This is an unconvincing solution because of the subversive nature of the power of TikTok. We already see that people brush this off as "not my problem. I don't care if China has my data". You don't have to trust domestic parties to agree that there is a legitimate security threat from Chinese controlled TikTok which must be addressed. > If you claim this is just and lawful, apply it equally to all other foreign and domestic apps that can be abused similar to tiktok both by domestic and foreign forces. This is ostensibly the point of the "clean network". Whether or not that particular solution is adequate or even appropriate remains to be seen, but it certainly seems aimed at exactly that problem.
giancarlostoro 6y ago
> but when they find out Big Bad China might see their dance videos and lip synching suddenly they're happy to crush the free exchange of information. This isn't what they even care about. It's all the telemetry and spying the app does, like copying your clipboard consistently (seriously how this is allowed anymore by iOS or Android is beyond me). What if you selected some proprietary information and later your kid opens up TikTok cause they love using your phone, and voila some proprietary information is copied on there, going to who knows where. Something like TikTok makes corporate espionage quite possible given its popularity. I can't imagine what other things the app is doing.

badrabbit 6y ago

Encryption is seen as a tool and a weapon,not as speech. You have the right to choose who you communicate with. Handing over your information to a foreign government,even an enemy state at war is your right. What you don't have a right to do is to share confidential information or information that is not about yourself that will aid a foreign power. The key here is that the information id about you and no one else, this information belongs to you and you have a right to communicate with foreign entities (freedom of speech does not constrain you to speak only to citizens in america). Freedom of speech applies because you are on US soil, not because tiktok is or isn't. On that same note, you get to tell foreign governments about your experience in the US, if you are persecuted or in fear for your life and your government can't protect you (to seek asylum for example). So I'd say communication with foreign countries and governments about unpriviledged information and first hand accounts is a right. Unless of course you live in china or korea in which case you can't make your government look bad or share information about internal conditions (such as starving population).