6 ms·

> the Sarawak government designated it as a “protected geographical indicator,” decreeing that true kek lapis Sarawak can only be made within state borders I l

by qubex 6y ago

> the Sarawak government designated it as a “protected geographical indicator,” decreeing that true kek lapis Sarawak can only be made within state borders I love stuff like this... a governmental body’s deliberate grab for extra-territorial authority. We have similar things in Italy (D.O.C.: Denominazione di Origine Controllata, meaning “Name with a Controlled Origin”) but at least that’s substantiated by a E.U.-level authority. I suppose in this case it is supported by national authority, but the funny thing is that it’s only within the confines of a higher authority that grants these powers to its lower constituents that such powers can exist (or within the context of international trade deals). A better term than the active-voice ‘designated’ might’ve been the mixed active/passive-voice “requested, and was granted”, but I’m probably splitting hairs here. I spent quite a while in Malaysia back in the early-to-mid 2000s, but I never actually tried this. The ingredients don’t sound super-appetising to me. EDIT: fixed formatting & punctuation.

brosinante 6y ago
The geographical indication in the EU is used to protect a product's name/brand, not stop it from being produced outside that area. I can make Aceto Balsamico in my basement the traditional way (I'd need a basement first), and can sell it, but not call Aceto Balsamico.
- Melting_Harps 6y ago
  > The geographical indication in the EU is used to protect a product's name/brand, not stop it from being produced outside that area. I can make Aceto Balsamico in my basement the traditional way (I'd need a basement first), and can sell it, but not call Aceto Balsamico. And this is exactly what happens in Italy, too; I did my apprenticeship there and ran a Kitchen in Emilia Romanga, where quite honestly it seems everything that comes out of there is protected (restricted is more like it) with that seal. However, after a few months I got invited to what can be best described as an underground Farmer's Market to Industry only guests that moves around people's farms/properties where they sell their products, be it Aceto, or Parmigiano, Culatello, Lambrusco etc... as a white label product sold strictly for 'personal use' only, but a poorly kept secret was that it was possible it also somehow found its way to the tables of certain restaurants as an accompaniment to an apperativo or as an anti-pasti. They're amazing products, made by artisans with great care, but they simply lacked a that designation as they were done in such small batches that even considering acquiring it would set them back economically. It was entirely like a faire with karaoke and music and dancing as well as make-shift stalls for these kind of products and they made food, and since it was mainly made up of a curated list of local chefs and farmers everything was amazing, it was the one of the highlights of my career to have been allowed to join and I wish I could have gone more often but work restricted me from going as it was mainly held during service hours and only announced a few days ahead of the event.
  - jaclaz 6y ago
    I don't want to seem too much a nitpicker on your spelling but: >to an apperativo or as an anti-pasti should be written as "an aperitivo or as an antipasto".
    - atdrummond 6y ago
      Is antipasti not the plural of antipasto?
      - jaclaz 6y ago
        Yes, antipasti is the plural of antipasto, and as such you cannot say "an antipasti", but anti-pasto or anti-pasti is improper as it would sound as someone that is "against meals". Antipasto is a composed word, made from ante- (the prefix of latin origin meaning before) and pasto (meal). The ante in composed words is sometimes changed into anti, but the word is a known one and has no hyphen. Whilst there are a number of accepted words including the prefix anti- (which comes from Greek and means "against") the prefix (usually including the hyphen) is instead used to make new derivatives/neologisms, i.e. if you are against (say) smoking, you are anti-fumo or antifumo (and then antifumo without hyphen might become an accepted word in the dictionary if it becomes of common use)
        Melting_Harps 6y ago
        Mi dispiace... I learned Italian via solely listening to it only while working in the country, best from an Austrian ex-lover who was from a border town in the North no less... so much like the other 3 languages (non-English) I speak, my grammar and syntax are admittedly usually off. Thanks for the correction, though. Antipasto, no hyphen, got it. As for this: > I don’t see the issue with these kind of protections. If there were none, some massive corporation would come in, make a cheaper, worse version with the same name, and put the original makers out of business. Consumers lose, small businesses lose, local communities lose, and the only winner is BigCo. That's exactly what has happened anyway in food without those things at the very source, farms are mainly a consolidated conglomerate all over the World; but in Italy the biggest food monoliths are able to have amazing clout, especially in ER, but the truth is that Italy has an integral counter-balance as it has a deep and rich history with it's cuisine such that the consumers are far better educated and entirely unlikely to fall for the the allure of a 'race to the bottom' as ER prides itself as 'Il Paese del Buon Gusto.' It was such a pleasure cooking in ER where many of our patrons would give me direct feedback and come back to see the improvements as we went throughout the season(s) as many were locals and how so many invited me and my staff into their own homes to hang and show us how they make those aforementioned products without the labels. And just so it's clear, its not like they don't have some that are protected along side as well. Modena is best known for it's Aceto, but one of the patrons I mentioned had vats going back over 500 years that were moved to Maranello during WWII due to damage and re-purposing of what was mainly farm land and not only did it have that regional seal, but he had proudly stated that he had sold out his entire foreseeable inventory (at the times) for the next 3 years. He had no desire to expand, and he took great pride in just making an amazing product that embodied his family's traditions and his local culture. The situation is just a lot more nuanced than what you're making it out to be, and also you have to understand that Italy is a country with 50+ types of cheeses, and probably well over 100 types of pasta, that are really just colloquially named to differ from the others and are only slightly different, if at all, than others. What I'm trying to say is that Italy specifically is so fragmented that I don't think what you propose is a real threat after having lived and worked there. Ironically, this is also why they say Italy is entirely ungovernable as well.
- omega3 6y ago
  I don't believe that's true, you can call it Aceto Balsamico, but you can't call it "Aceto Balsamico di Modena" if it's not produced from that region.
ponker 6y ago
The idea that the Italian protected designation is somehow more "legitimate" than the Malaysian one is nothing but Eurocentrism. The Malaysian government can enforce these designations the same way that any other entity can... as a stipulation of trade agreements. If your country doesn't respect Malaysia's designations, then perhaps Malaysia won't let you sell your products in Malaysia.
- qubex 6y ago
  I’m not saying that the European stipulation has more valence than the Malaysian one. I’m saying they’re equally unfounded, though one is blessed with a greater consumer base than the other they’re equally predicated on the same principle. My issue is with the idea of a government blessing itself with powers beyond its border by specifically saying that only something within its borders is legitimate outside of them, which is... just bizarre, in absence of higher authorities and accords.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    EU regulations on geographical indications only have effect outside the EU where there are bilateral agreements with some countries that cover some areas (e.g. wine and spirits): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_traditional_specialities_in_the_European_Union#Outside_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_t...
    - qubex 6y ago
      That is what I’m saying: it is exactly analogous to the government of Sarawak declaring that only what is made within its borders can be called something... if it is made outside its borders, it is only within its borders that that thing can be rejected as being not worthy of the name. It’s the accords and the relationship between entities of various kinds (some of them sovereign, some of them not) which gives or denies this stipulation any power whatsoever. To wit: the Sarawak government is entirely free to impound cake blessed with the hallowed name if it is made in the state of Selangor and shipped to within Sarawak, but decrying Selangor-produced cake sold in Kelantan is entirely outside the scope of its power because all of that occurs beyond its borders, and is therefore ineffective unless there is a national government and/or trade agreements that overarch all the territories. It’s exactly the same for national, EU, and international trade agreements.
bryanlarsen 6y ago
Is this substantially different than governments allowing you to sell something called "Cola" but not something called "Coca-Cola"?
- qubex 6y ago
  Very good point... You’ve triggered off the famous gif of Captain Mal from Serenity having is “uh ah um” moment... Fundamentally I’m going to answer that you’ve hot the nail on the head: enforcement of franchises, parents, or brand-names is fundamentally equivalent. In the case of geography-based names, I suppose you could say you’re buying into equity capitalised in the finite supply of land (“buy land, they’re not making any more of it”) as opposed to equity in brand recognition. It’s all arbitrary.
- esyir 6y ago
  Yes. In one, this refers to a specific company's product with a pretty standardised output. The dop designation however refers to the food itself, and can be manufactured by multiple independent entities with no explicit association. A more proper analogy world be the government backing you from selling cola, but allowing "cola style soda"

by qubex 6y ago

brosinante 6y ago

The geographical indication in the EU is used to protect a product's name/brand, not stop it from being produced outside that area. I can make Aceto Balsamico in my basement the traditional way (I'd need a basement first), and can sell it, but not call Aceto Balsamico.

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> The geographical indication in the EU is used to protect a product's name/brand, not stop it from being produced outside that area. I can make Aceto Balsamico in my basement the traditional way (I'd need a basement first), and can sell it, but not call Aceto Balsamico. And this is exactly what happens in Italy, too; I did my apprenticeship there and ran a Kitchen in Emilia Romanga, where quite honestly it seems everything that comes out of there is protected (restricted is more like it) with that seal. However, after a few months I got invited to what can be best described as an underground Farmer's Market to Industry only guests that moves around people's farms/properties where they sell their products, be it Aceto, or Parmigiano, Culatello, Lambrusco etc... as a white label product sold strictly for 'personal use' only, but a poorly kept secret was that it was possible it also somehow found its way to the tables of certain restaurants as an accompaniment to an apperativo or as an anti-pasti. They're amazing products, made by artisans with great care, but they simply lacked a that designation as they were done in such small batches that even considering acquiring it would set them back economically. It was entirely like a faire with karaoke and music and dancing as well as make-shift stalls for these kind of products and they made food, and since it was mainly made up of a curated list of local chefs and farmers everything was amazing, it was the one of the highlights of my career to have been allowed to join and I wish I could have gone more often but work restricted me from going as it was mainly held during service hours and only announced a few days ahead of the event.
- jaclaz 6y ago
  I don't want to seem too much a nitpicker on your spelling but: >to an apperativo or as an anti-pasti should be written as "an aperitivo or as an antipasto".
  - atdrummond 6y ago
    Is antipasti not the plural of antipasto?
    - jaclaz 6y ago
      Yes, antipasti is the plural of antipasto, and as such you cannot say "an antipasti", but anti-pasto or anti-pasti is improper as it would sound as someone that is "against meals". Antipasto is a composed word, made from ante- (the prefix of latin origin meaning before) and pasto (meal). The ante in composed words is sometimes changed into anti, but the word is a known one and has no hyphen. Whilst there are a number of accepted words including the prefix anti- (which comes from Greek and means "against") the prefix (usually including the hyphen) is instead used to make new derivatives/neologisms, i.e. if you are against (say) smoking, you are anti-fumo or antifumo (and then antifumo without hyphen might become an accepted word in the dictionary if it becomes of common use)
      - Melting_Harps 6y ago
        Mi dispiace... I learned Italian via solely listening to it only while working in the country, best from an Austrian ex-lover who was from a border town in the North no less... so much like the other 3 languages (non-English) I speak, my grammar and syntax are admittedly usually off. Thanks for the correction, though. Antipasto, no hyphen, got it. As for this: > I don’t see the issue with these kind of protections. If there were none, some massive corporation would come in, make a cheaper, worse version with the same name, and put the original makers out of business. Consumers lose, small businesses lose, local communities lose, and the only winner is BigCo. That's exactly what has happened anyway in food without those things at the very source, farms are mainly a consolidated conglomerate all over the World; but in Italy the biggest food monoliths are able to have amazing clout, especially in ER, but the truth is that Italy has an integral counter-balance as it has a deep and rich history with it's cuisine such that the consumers are far better educated and entirely unlikely to fall for the the allure of a 'race to the bottom' as ER prides itself as 'Il Paese del Buon Gusto.' It was such a pleasure cooking in ER where many of our patrons would give me direct feedback and come back to see the improvements as we went throughout the season(s) as many were locals and how so many invited me and my staff into their own homes to hang and show us how they make those aforementioned products without the labels. And just so it's clear, its not like they don't have some that are protected along side as well. Modena is best known for it's Aceto, but one of the patrons I mentioned had vats going back over 500 years that were moved to Maranello during WWII due to damage and re-purposing of what was mainly farm land and not only did it have that regional seal, but he had proudly stated that he had sold out his entire foreseeable inventory (at the times) for the next 3 years. He had no desire to expand, and he took great pride in just making an amazing product that embodied his family's traditions and his local culture. The situation is just a lot more nuanced than what you're making it out to be, and also you have to understand that Italy is a country with 50+ types of cheeses, and probably well over 100 types of pasta, that are really just colloquially named to differ from the others and are only slightly different, if at all, than others. What I'm trying to say is that Italy specifically is so fragmented that I don't think what you propose is a real threat after having lived and worked there. Ironically, this is also why they say Italy is entirely ungovernable as well.
omega3 6y ago
I don't believe that's true, you can call it Aceto Balsamico, but you can't call it "Aceto Balsamico di Modena" if it's not produced from that region.

ponker 6y ago

The idea that the Italian protected designation is somehow more "legitimate" than the Malaysian one is nothing but Eurocentrism. The Malaysian government can enforce these designations the same way that any other entity can... as a stipulation of trade agreements. If your country doesn't respect Malaysia's designations, then perhaps Malaysia won't let you sell your products in Malaysia.

qubex 6y ago
I’m not saying that the European stipulation has more valence than the Malaysian one. I’m saying they’re equally unfounded, though one is blessed with a greater consumer base than the other they’re equally predicated on the same principle. My issue is with the idea of a government blessing itself with powers beyond its border by specifically saying that only something within its borders is legitimate outside of them, which is... just bizarre, in absence of higher authorities and accords.
- arethuza 6y ago
  EU regulations on geographical indications only have effect outside the EU where there are bilateral agreements with some countries that cover some areas (e.g. wine and spirits): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_traditional_specialities_in_the_European_Union#Outside_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_t...
  - qubex 6y ago
    That is what I’m saying: it is exactly analogous to the government of Sarawak declaring that only what is made within its borders can be called something... if it is made outside its borders, it is only within its borders that that thing can be rejected as being not worthy of the name. It’s the accords and the relationship between entities of various kinds (some of them sovereign, some of them not) which gives or denies this stipulation any power whatsoever. To wit: the Sarawak government is entirely free to impound cake blessed with the hallowed name if it is made in the state of Selangor and shipped to within Sarawak, but decrying Selangor-produced cake sold in Kelantan is entirely outside the scope of its power because all of that occurs beyond its borders, and is therefore ineffective unless there is a national government and/or trade agreements that overarch all the territories. It’s exactly the same for national, EU, and international trade agreements.

bryanlarsen 6y ago

Is this substantially different than governments allowing you to sell something called "Cola" but not something called "Coca-Cola"?

qubex 6y ago
Very good point... You’ve triggered off the famous gif of Captain Mal from Serenity having is “uh ah um” moment... Fundamentally I’m going to answer that you’ve hot the nail on the head: enforcement of franchises, parents, or brand-names is fundamentally equivalent. In the case of geography-based names, I suppose you could say you’re buying into equity capitalised in the finite supply of land (“buy land, they’re not making any more of it”) as opposed to equity in brand recognition. It’s all arbitrary.
esyir 6y ago
Yes. In one, this refers to a specific company's product with a pretty standardised output. The dop designation however refers to the food itself, and can be manufactured by multiple independent entities with no explicit association. A more proper analogy world be the government backing you from selling cola, but allowing "cola style soda"