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... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... I would argue that

... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... I would argue that the United States is worse than China. China isn't, nor has it really ever been imperialist. The United States is an imperialist country that has wreaked havoc across the globe, and is responsible for the death of millions of innocent civilians.

creato 6y ago
Your link includes post-WWII "regime change". Would you rather live in Western Europe or Eastern Europe? North Korea or South Korea? The point is, the United States has done a lot of things across the world. Some of it may be havoc. It may be responsible for many deaths. It's also responsible for many improved lives. China today is involved in territorial disputes involving military mobilization with more than half of its neighbors. In a few decades, we're probably going to look back on Xinjiang as an event comparable to the holocaust. Boiling this down to "USA = imperialist = bad" and "China = not imperialist = OK" is silly.
- xg15 6y ago
  > Some of it may be havoc. It may be responsible for many deaths. It's also responsible for many improved lives. If we're making those kinds of tradeoff, China is just as responsible for many improved lives, just look at the Road and Belt initiative, projects against poverty and involvement in Africa.
  - SenoraRaton 6y ago
    China pulled an entire nation of 1 billion people out of poverty, industrialized and become a global force in less than a century. As is typical with propaganda, you must demonize the enemy as an all knowing specter read to pounce, and at the same time pretend they are a toothless tiger that has so many failing they could never be considered successful. >The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.” http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-...
- SenoraRaton 6y ago
  I question the validity of the accusations i Xinjiang. If you can provide me evidence of wrongdoing, I will be more than glad to read and investigate it. China is dealing with radical Islamists in the best way they feel they can. I never said that China was "ok", I simply pointed out the hypocrisy that is always present when we demonize a foreign nation, for political ends.
  - glenstein 6y ago
    Amnesty International has interviewed more than 400 people who have reported disappearances and sometimes torture in Xinjiang. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/12/ozils-uyghur-post10-things-you-need-to-know-about-chinas-xinjiang-crisis/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/12/ozils-uyghur-... >I never said that China was "ok", I simply pointed out the hypocrisy that is I'm sure you think this is helpful, but this is a false equivalence that, for practical purposes, serves to derail necessary and needed criticisms of China.
    - SenoraRaton 6y ago
      Amnesty international has a troubled history. https://www.mintpressnews.com/amnesty-international-troubling-collaboration-with-uk-us-intelligence/253939/ https://www.mintpressnews.com/amnesty-international-troublin... Luis Kutner was a co-founder of Amnesty international, and Kutner would go on to form the “Friends of the FBI” group, an organization “formed to combat criticism of the Federal Bureau of Investigations,” according to the New York Times, after its covert campaign to disrupt leftists movements — COINTELPRO — was revealed. He also went on to operate in a number of theaters that saw heavy involvement from the CIA — including work Kutner did to undermine Congolese Prime Minister and staunch anti-imperialist Patrice Lumumba — and represented the Dalai Lama, who was provided $1.7 million a year by the CIA in the 1960s. If you want more recent events: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony They were the ones that "corroborated" her testimony. If it weren't so tragic, it would almost be comical, its like they have manufactured consent before, and know what they are doing...
      - 6y ago
pbourke 6y ago
> China isn't, nor has it really ever been imperialist. Would Tibetans agree with you on that point? > The United States [...] is responsible for the death of millions of innocent civilians. Are you aware of China’s Great Leap Forward and the ensuing Great Famine?

creato 6y ago

Your link includes post-WWII "regime change". Would you rather live in Western Europe or Eastern Europe? North Korea or South Korea? The point is, the United States has done a lot of things across the world. Some of it may be havoc. It may be responsible for many deaths. It's also responsible for many improved lives. China today is involved in territorial disputes involving military mobilization with more than half of its neighbors. In a few decades, we're probably going to look back on Xinjiang as an event comparable to the holocaust. Boiling this down to "USA = imperialist = bad" and "China = not imperialist = OK" is silly.

xg15 6y ago
> Some of it may be havoc. It may be responsible for many deaths. It's also responsible for many improved lives. If we're making those kinds of tradeoff, China is just as responsible for many improved lives, just look at the Road and Belt initiative, projects against poverty and involvement in Africa.
- SenoraRaton 6y ago
  China pulled an entire nation of 1 billion people out of poverty, industrialized and become a global force in less than a century. As is typical with propaganda, you must demonize the enemy as an all knowing specter read to pounce, and at the same time pretend they are a toothless tiger that has so many failing they could never be considered successful. >The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.” http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-...
SenoraRaton 6y ago
I question the validity of the accusations i Xinjiang. If you can provide me evidence of wrongdoing, I will be more than glad to read and investigate it. China is dealing with radical Islamists in the best way they feel they can. I never said that China was "ok", I simply pointed out the hypocrisy that is always present when we demonize a foreign nation, for political ends.
- glenstein 6y ago
  Amnesty International has interviewed more than 400 people who have reported disappearances and sometimes torture in Xinjiang. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/12/ozils-uyghur-post10-things-you-need-to-know-about-chinas-xinjiang-crisis/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/12/ozils-uyghur-... >I never said that China was "ok", I simply pointed out the hypocrisy that is I'm sure you think this is helpful, but this is a false equivalence that, for practical purposes, serves to derail necessary and needed criticisms of China.
  - SenoraRaton 6y ago
    Amnesty international has a troubled history. https://www.mintpressnews.com/amnesty-international-troubling-collaboration-with-uk-us-intelligence/253939/ https://www.mintpressnews.com/amnesty-international-troublin... Luis Kutner was a co-founder of Amnesty international, and Kutner would go on to form the “Friends of the FBI” group, an organization “formed to combat criticism of the Federal Bureau of Investigations,” according to the New York Times, after its covert campaign to disrupt leftists movements — COINTELPRO — was revealed. He also went on to operate in a number of theaters that saw heavy involvement from the CIA — including work Kutner did to undermine Congolese Prime Minister and staunch anti-imperialist Patrice Lumumba — and represented the Dalai Lama, who was provided $1.7 million a year by the CIA in the 1960s. If you want more recent events: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony They were the ones that "corroborated" her testimony. If it weren't so tragic, it would almost be comical, its like they have manufactured consent before, and know what they are doing...
    - 6y ago

pbourke 6y ago

> China isn't, nor has it really ever been imperialist. Would Tibetans agree with you on that point? > The United States [...] is responsible for the death of millions of innocent civilians. Are you aware of China’s Great Leap Forward and the ensuing Great Famine?