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True, but when 100k uber drivers (contractors) in California are reclassified as employees, it seem fair to say a "dispute" is happening. For the record, I am

by dfdz 6y ago

True, but when 100k uber drivers (contractors) in California are reclassified as employees, it seem fair to say a "dispute" is happening. For the record, I am not saying the ruling is incorrect, but it does make me feel uneasy because: 1) I think that Uber does provide a public good (increased efficiency compared to a taxi) 2) If all drivers are employees, the business does not seem sustainable I think that new laws are needed rather than using pre-sharing-economy labels like employee, but that the ruling by the judge may be correct given the current laws.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
1) In Victorian Britain, child labour provided a great many public goods. 2) After it was outlawed, many of businesses that relied on it became unsustainable. I don't think it is sensible to justify exploitation with "but the public benefits from it' and 'without it the business might go under'. By that logic we'd still have Victorian workhouses, 12-hour workdays, and there'd be no health & safety.
- logicchains 6y ago
  >I don't think it is sensible to justify exploitation with "but the public benefits from it' and 'without it the business might go under'. It's absurd to compare providing a service that hooks drivers up with clients to child labour.
  - reidjs 6y ago
    driving is one of the most dangerous things you can do nowadays. most Uber drivers have to support themselves and possibly others. Many drivers can’t afford private healthcare so in the case of an accident it would really suck for them and their family. Maybe they’re not losing their fingers in factory machines like child laborers are but I think they deserve employer provided healthcare at the very least.
  - xnyan 6y ago
    Driving for a living is hard on a person. Truck drivers have bad health and quite high divorce/problematic relationship rates. Taxi driving is relatively dangerous. Driving is the most dangerous activity we commonly perform today and the risk corresponds to miles driven.
- eru 6y ago
  > By that logic we'd still have Victorian workhouses, 12-hour workdays, and there'd be no health & safety. What makes you think so? There's more than one reason for the demise of child labour. Society has gotten richer over time, and so families place a comparatively higher value on not having their children work.
jeffbee 6y ago
Uber has not ever been more efficient than the services it replaced. Better in many ways, definitely for riders and arguably for some drivers, but not efficient. Uber has simply been shoveling tens of billions of dollars in funny money into the maw of their attempt to corner a market, which has never worked. This write-up from today sums up some of the story so far. https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/08/hubert-horan-can-uber-ever-deliver-part-twenty-three-ubers-already-hopelessly-unprofitable-economics-take-a-major-coronavirus-hit.html https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/08/hubert-horan-can-ube...
- jquery 6y ago
  From your link > Uber was always less efficient than the traditional taxis it drove out of business This is patent nonsense. I suspect he never rode taxis often before Uber appeared. Also Uber’s core ride business was profitable before corona hit. Lots of businesses are hemorrhaging money right now, especially ones in travel.
anonunivgrad 6y ago
But for Uber being allowed to seize the market with their ultra low prices, which are only possible because they class their labor as contractors, there would be companies more like Uber than like taxis but that treat their employees like employees. The problem with taxis was the medallion system and other crazy regulations. There is a middle ground. No medallions or other protectionist measures, but you have to treat your employees like employees.
- eru 6y ago
  I wouldn't call that a middle ground, that would sort-of imply that your suggestion is in between the two approaches. The old system with medallions also had the drivers as independent contractors. Your suggestion would be something different from both existing approaches. Edit: no opinion implied on whether your suggestion is any good or not.
  - anonunivgrad 6y ago
    All good points.
brudgers 6y ago
If all drivers are employees, the business does not seem sustainable Uber lost $19,000,000,000 in 2019. It lost money last quarter. Uber is already unsustainable. Despite its labor practices, Uber has been unsustainable since its founding. And it’s not like Amazon’s early days where lack of profits was offset by acquisition of physical infrastructure. Uber loses money on via unit economics.

by dfdz 6y ago

ClumsyPilot 6y ago

1) In Victorian Britain, child labour provided a great many public goods. 2) After it was outlawed, many of businesses that relied on it became unsustainable. I don't think it is sensible to justify exploitation with "but the public benefits from it' and 'without it the business might go under'. By that logic we'd still have Victorian workhouses, 12-hour workdays, and there'd be no health & safety.

logicchains 6y ago
>I don't think it is sensible to justify exploitation with "but the public benefits from it' and 'without it the business might go under'. It's absurd to compare providing a service that hooks drivers up with clients to child labour.
- reidjs 6y ago
  driving is one of the most dangerous things you can do nowadays. most Uber drivers have to support themselves and possibly others. Many drivers can’t afford private healthcare so in the case of an accident it would really suck for them and their family. Maybe they’re not losing their fingers in factory machines like child laborers are but I think they deserve employer provided healthcare at the very least.
- xnyan 6y ago
  Driving for a living is hard on a person. Truck drivers have bad health and quite high divorce/problematic relationship rates. Taxi driving is relatively dangerous. Driving is the most dangerous activity we commonly perform today and the risk corresponds to miles driven.
eru 6y ago
> By that logic we'd still have Victorian workhouses, 12-hour workdays, and there'd be no health & safety. What makes you think so? There's more than one reason for the demise of child labour. Society has gotten richer over time, and so families place a comparatively higher value on not having their children work.

jeffbee 6y ago

Uber has not ever been more efficient than the services it replaced. Better in many ways, definitely for riders and arguably for some drivers, but not efficient. Uber has simply been shoveling tens of billions of dollars in funny money into the maw of their attempt to corner a market, which has never worked. This write-up from today sums up some of the story so far. https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/08/hubert-horan-can-uber-ever-deliver-part-twenty-three-ubers-already-hopelessly-unprofitable-economics-take-a-major-coronavirus-hit.html https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/08/hubert-horan-can-ube...

jquery 6y ago
From your link > Uber was always less efficient than the traditional taxis it drove out of business This is patent nonsense. I suspect he never rode taxis often before Uber appeared. Also Uber’s core ride business was profitable before corona hit. Lots of businesses are hemorrhaging money right now, especially ones in travel.

anonunivgrad 6y ago

But for Uber being allowed to seize the market with their ultra low prices, which are only possible because they class their labor as contractors, there would be companies more like Uber than like taxis but that treat their employees like employees. The problem with taxis was the medallion system and other crazy regulations. There is a middle ground. No medallions or other protectionist measures, but you have to treat your employees like employees.

eru 6y ago
I wouldn't call that a middle ground, that would sort-of imply that your suggestion is in between the two approaches. The old system with medallions also had the drivers as independent contractors. Your suggestion would be something different from both existing approaches. Edit: no opinion implied on whether your suggestion is any good or not.
- anonunivgrad 6y ago
  All good points.

brudgers 6y ago

If all drivers are employees, the business does not seem sustainable Uber lost $19,000,000,000 in 2019. It lost money last quarter. Uber is already unsustainable. Despite its labor practices, Uber has been unsustainable since its founding. And it’s not like Amazon’s early days where lack of profits was offset by acquisition of physical infrastructure. Uber loses money on via unit economics.