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It's possible to criticize the national security state in the U.S. while not losing sight of the fact that China is run by an authoritarian government guilty of

It's possible to criticize the national security state in the U.S. while not losing sight of the fact that China is run by an authoritarian government guilty of abuses at a completely different order of magnitude. That difference is important, because a lot of people even in this thread seem to completely lose sight of it.

8note 6y ago
I don't think that's to say you should trust a US network because you can't trust a Chinese network though
- glenstein 6y ago
  Correct. Saying one is vastly objectively worse should not be taken to mean that the other is without flaws.
csb6 6y ago
I said nothing about China in my comment. All I said is that it is disingenuous and incorrect to call the U.S. a “liberal democracy” and use that to explain away the reasons that our surveillance state is “better” than theirs. I made no judgment about the comparison itself.
SenoraRaton 6y ago
... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... I would argue that the United States is worse than China. China isn't, nor has it really ever been imperialist. The United States is an imperialist country that has wreaked havoc across the globe, and is responsible for the death of millions of innocent civilians.
- creato 6y ago
  Your link includes post-WWII "regime change". Would you rather live in Western Europe or Eastern Europe? North Korea or South Korea? The point is, the United States has done a lot of things across the world. Some of it may be havoc. It may be responsible for many deaths. It's also responsible for many improved lives. China today is involved in territorial disputes involving military mobilization with more than half of its neighbors. In a few decades, we're probably going to look back on Xinjiang as an event comparable to the holocaust. Boiling this down to "USA = imperialist = bad" and "China = not imperialist = OK" is silly.
  - xg15 6y ago
    > Some of it may be havoc. It may be responsible for many deaths. It's also responsible for many improved lives. If we're making those kinds of tradeoff, China is just as responsible for many improved lives, just look at the Road and Belt initiative, projects against poverty and involvement in Africa.
    - SenoraRaton 6y ago
      China pulled an entire nation of 1 billion people out of poverty, industrialized and become a global force in less than a century. As is typical with propaganda, you must demonize the enemy as an all knowing specter read to pounce, and at the same time pretend they are a toothless tiger that has so many failing they could never be considered successful. >The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.” http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-...
  - SenoraRaton 6y ago
    I question the validity of the accusations i Xinjiang. If you can provide me evidence of wrongdoing, I will be more than glad to read and investigate it. China is dealing with radical Islamists in the best way they feel they can. I never said that China was "ok", I simply pointed out the hypocrisy that is always present when we demonize a foreign nation, for political ends.
    - glenstein 6y ago
      Amnesty International has interviewed more than 400 people who have reported disappearances and sometimes torture in Xinjiang. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/12/ozils-uyghur-post10-things-you-need-to-know-about-chinas-xinjiang-crisis/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/12/ozils-uyghur-... >I never said that China was "ok", I simply pointed out the hypocrisy that is I'm sure you think this is helpful, but this is a false equivalence that, for practical purposes, serves to derail necessary and needed criticisms of China.
- pbourke 6y ago
  > China isn't, nor has it really ever been imperialist. Would Tibetans agree with you on that point? > The United States [...] is responsible for the death of millions of innocent civilians. Are you aware of China’s Great Leap Forward and the ensuing Great Famine?

8note 6y ago

I don't think that's to say you should trust a US network because you can't trust a Chinese network though

glenstein 6y ago
Correct. Saying one is vastly objectively worse should not be taken to mean that the other is without flaws.

csb6 6y ago

I said nothing about China in my comment. All I said is that it is disingenuous and incorrect to call the U.S. a “liberal democracy” and use that to explain away the reasons that our surveillance state is “better” than theirs. I made no judgment about the comparison itself.

SenoraRaton 6y ago

... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... I would argue that the United States is worse than China. China isn't, nor has it really ever been imperialist. The United States is an imperialist country that has wreaked havoc across the globe, and is responsible for the death of millions of innocent civilians.

creato 6y ago
Your link includes post-WWII "regime change". Would you rather live in Western Europe or Eastern Europe? North Korea or South Korea? The point is, the United States has done a lot of things across the world. Some of it may be havoc. It may be responsible for many deaths. It's also responsible for many improved lives. China today is involved in territorial disputes involving military mobilization with more than half of its neighbors. In a few decades, we're probably going to look back on Xinjiang as an event comparable to the holocaust. Boiling this down to "USA = imperialist = bad" and "China = not imperialist = OK" is silly.
- xg15 6y ago
  > Some of it may be havoc. It may be responsible for many deaths. It's also responsible for many improved lives. If we're making those kinds of tradeoff, China is just as responsible for many improved lives, just look at the Road and Belt initiative, projects against poverty and involvement in Africa.
  - SenoraRaton 6y ago
    China pulled an entire nation of 1 billion people out of poverty, industrialized and become a global force in less than a century. As is typical with propaganda, you must demonize the enemy as an all knowing specter read to pounce, and at the same time pretend they are a toothless tiger that has so many failing they could never be considered successful. >The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.” http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html http://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-...
- SenoraRaton 6y ago
  I question the validity of the accusations i Xinjiang. If you can provide me evidence of wrongdoing, I will be more than glad to read and investigate it. China is dealing with radical Islamists in the best way they feel they can. I never said that China was "ok", I simply pointed out the hypocrisy that is always present when we demonize a foreign nation, for political ends.
  - glenstein 6y ago
    Amnesty International has interviewed more than 400 people who have reported disappearances and sometimes torture in Xinjiang. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/12/ozils-uyghur-post10-things-you-need-to-know-about-chinas-xinjiang-crisis/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/12/ozils-uyghur-... >I never said that China was "ok", I simply pointed out the hypocrisy that is I'm sure you think this is helpful, but this is a false equivalence that, for practical purposes, serves to derail necessary and needed criticisms of China.
pbourke 6y ago
> China isn't, nor has it really ever been imperialist. Would Tibetans agree with you on that point? > The United States [...] is responsible for the death of millions of innocent civilians. Are you aware of China’s Great Leap Forward and the ensuing Great Famine?