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> If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate It is clearly not equivalent since uber literally determines the

> If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate It is clearly not equivalent since uber literally determines the rate. Yes, they can refuse to work below a certain threshold but they aren't in-fact "setting the rate".

emteycz 6y ago
Uber does not determine the rate, the market does. Uber won't find drivers if the rate is too low, for example because it's lower than the costs, lower than the risk, or lower that the competition. Uber (and the driver too) won't find customers if the rate is too high.
- root_axis 6y ago
  > Uber does not determine the rate, the market do Not true. Uber's algorithm sets the rate within certain profitability margins which are determined by uber, "the market" is very artificial since customers only ever see the rates that uber decides they should see rather than what some drivers would actually offer. > Uber won't find drivers if the rate is too low, for example because it's lower than the costs, lower than the risk, or lower that the competition. Uber (and the driver too) won't find customers if the rate is too high. Right... uber deliberately structures the market through their explicit control of the price. The price is only "too low" or "too high" with respect to uber's business goals not with respect to what the actual market would do.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    There are other market players than Uber, and Uber is in no way a taxi monopoly. You could say this about literally any marketplace and especially about any taxi company (nearly all taxi companies have independent drivers-contractors, usually driving their own but branded cars - at their own expense, and with exclusivity contracts; taxis all over the world work this way), but only the more modern marketplaces are forced to modify their relationships. I both as a customer and a occasional driver hate this, thankfully I am driving in Czechia where no such law would ever pass, the traditional taxi lobby is not as strong - but they're trying hard.
    - root_axis 6y ago
      > There are other market players than Uber, and Uber is in no way a taxi monopoly True, but not relevant to my point which is that uber explicitly sets the rates, not drivers, and not the market. I understand why they do this, but it's simply false to say that drivers having the option to sometimes pass up on rides is the equivalent of setting their own rate.
      - emteycz 6y ago
        Let's consider me, an IT contractor. I have a profile with IT staffing agency. They offer me contracts with a predetermined rate that I can accept or decline; I was offered an exclusivity contract for additional 5% income, but I declined. Why is me, an Uber driver so different that I am to be forced to be an employee?
chrisseaton 6y ago
But isn't that like all contracting? A software contract offers $50 an hour. I can either take it or leave it. Uber offers $x an hour (or mile, or however it works.) Drivers can either take it or leave it. What do you think is the essential difference here? Do you think software contractors can somehow force clients to accept any rate they want? No. If they client doesn't want to pay above $x then there's nothing you can do but decline the job. Just like Uber driver can do nothing but decline the job, surely?
- root_axis 6y ago
  > What do you think is the essential difference here? The essential difference is that the role of uber is absent from your analogy. > Do you think software contractors can somehow force clients to accept any rate they want I'll just assume that's a sarcastic quip in rhetorical question form rather than what you actually think I believe. Obviously, a software contract is negotiated between two parties, unlike in the case of Uber where all possibility of negotiation is eschewed for a price explicitly set by uber. If a driver wants to offer their services for more or less than uber decides, they cannot, and are forced to lower or raise their price in order to gain access to the market.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > If a driver wants to offer their services for more or less than uber decides, they cannot, and are forced to lower or raise their price in order to gain access to the market. The drivers can ask for any price they want from Uber. Uber can either accept it or not. That’s a negotiation. What more do you think it needs to be a negotiation? That’s just like a normal contract. I may want my fence painted but I’m not paying over £500. If I won’t go below that is it no longer contracting?
    - root_axis 6y ago
      Uber drivers don't have the option to set their rates. They cannot "ask for any price they want from Uber", they agree to accept the rates explicitly set by Uber: that's the contract; not every employment contract meets the legal definition of "contract employment"

emteycz 6y ago

Uber does not determine the rate, the market does. Uber won't find drivers if the rate is too low, for example because it's lower than the costs, lower than the risk, or lower that the competition. Uber (and the driver too) won't find customers if the rate is too high.

root_axis 6y ago
> Uber does not determine the rate, the market do Not true. Uber's algorithm sets the rate within certain profitability margins which are determined by uber, "the market" is very artificial since customers only ever see the rates that uber decides they should see rather than what some drivers would actually offer. > Uber won't find drivers if the rate is too low, for example because it's lower than the costs, lower than the risk, or lower that the competition. Uber (and the driver too) won't find customers if the rate is too high. Right... uber deliberately structures the market through their explicit control of the price. The price is only "too low" or "too high" with respect to uber's business goals not with respect to what the actual market would do.
- emteycz 6y ago
  There are other market players than Uber, and Uber is in no way a taxi monopoly. You could say this about literally any marketplace and especially about any taxi company (nearly all taxi companies have independent drivers-contractors, usually driving their own but branded cars - at their own expense, and with exclusivity contracts; taxis all over the world work this way), but only the more modern marketplaces are forced to modify their relationships. I both as a customer and a occasional driver hate this, thankfully I am driving in Czechia where no such law would ever pass, the traditional taxi lobby is not as strong - but they're trying hard.
  - root_axis 6y ago
    > There are other market players than Uber, and Uber is in no way a taxi monopoly True, but not relevant to my point which is that uber explicitly sets the rates, not drivers, and not the market. I understand why they do this, but it's simply false to say that drivers having the option to sometimes pass up on rides is the equivalent of setting their own rate.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      Let's consider me, an IT contractor. I have a profile with IT staffing agency. They offer me contracts with a predetermined rate that I can accept or decline; I was offered an exclusivity contract for additional 5% income, but I declined. Why is me, an Uber driver so different that I am to be forced to be an employee?

chrisseaton 6y ago

But isn't that like all contracting? A software contract offers $50 an hour. I can either take it or leave it. Uber offers $x an hour (or mile, or however it works.) Drivers can either take it or leave it. What do you think is the essential difference here? Do you think software contractors can somehow force clients to accept any rate they want? No. If they client doesn't want to pay above $x then there's nothing you can do but decline the job. Just like Uber driver can do nothing but decline the job, surely?

root_axis 6y ago
> What do you think is the essential difference here? The essential difference is that the role of uber is absent from your analogy. > Do you think software contractors can somehow force clients to accept any rate they want I'll just assume that's a sarcastic quip in rhetorical question form rather than what you actually think I believe. Obviously, a software contract is negotiated between two parties, unlike in the case of Uber where all possibility of negotiation is eschewed for a price explicitly set by uber. If a driver wants to offer their services for more or less than uber decides, they cannot, and are forced to lower or raise their price in order to gain access to the market.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > If a driver wants to offer their services for more or less than uber decides, they cannot, and are forced to lower or raise their price in order to gain access to the market. The drivers can ask for any price they want from Uber. Uber can either accept it or not. That’s a negotiation. What more do you think it needs to be a negotiation? That’s just like a normal contract. I may want my fence painted but I’m not paying over £500. If I won’t go below that is it no longer contracting?
  - root_axis 6y ago
    Uber drivers don't have the option to set their rates. They cannot "ask for any price they want from Uber", they agree to accept the rates explicitly set by Uber: that's the contract; not every employment contract meets the legal definition of "contract employment"