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Pedantically, sure. Ethically, maybe? Legally -- we'll see how this case goes. I think it's reasonable to argue that because the contractor had no input into t

Pedantically, sure. Ethically, maybe? Legally -- we'll see how this case goes. I think it's reasonable to argue that because the contractor had no input into the rate, and if they decline too many rides they might be removed from the service, that they do not have the power to set rates.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
Having no input into the rate is meaningless. If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate -- the rate is set at the point where they start declining work. Obviously that may mean they don't get as much work, but setting your own rate doesn't grant immunity from supply and demand. What would make this a lot easier is if the apps would just allow you to set a rate below which you're not willing to accept work. The reason they punish you for declining too often is that they don't want the rider to have to wait for multiple drivers who regularly decline all offers before finding one willing to accept it, so that would solve that because you wouldn't even get the offer. I'm curious to see how this shakes out in the end, because we keep getting these decisions where they say they're employees because X, but then won't they just change X to make them contractors again?
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Is the amount a driver makes totally transparent to them ahead of accepting a ride, sufficient that they could refuse anything that makes them less than $XX/hour or travels to an area they don't want to travel to? Are drivers removed from the platform if they refuse too many rides? It seems like the drivers actually have very little power to enact any effective bargaining over rates in practice.
- root_axis 6y ago
  > If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate It is clearly not equivalent since uber literally determines the rate. Yes, they can refuse to work below a certain threshold but they aren't in-fact "setting the rate".
  - emteycz 6y ago
    Uber does not determine the rate, the market does. Uber won't find drivers if the rate is too low, for example because it's lower than the costs, lower than the risk, or lower that the competition. Uber (and the driver too) won't find customers if the rate is too high.
    - root_axis 6y ago
      > Uber does not determine the rate, the market do Not true. Uber's algorithm sets the rate within certain profitability margins which are determined by uber, "the market" is very artificial since customers only ever see the rates that uber decides they should see rather than what some drivers would actually offer. > Uber won't find drivers if the rate is too low, for example because it's lower than the costs, lower than the risk, or lower that the competition. Uber (and the driver too) won't find customers if the rate is too high. Right... uber deliberately structures the market through their explicit control of the price. The price is only "too low" or "too high" with respect to uber's business goals not with respect to what the actual market would do.
      - emteycz 6y ago
        There are other market players than Uber, and Uber is in no way a taxi monopoly. You could say this about literally any marketplace and especially about any taxi company (nearly all taxi companies have independent drivers-contractors, usually driving their own but branded cars - at their own expense, and with exclusivity contracts; taxis all over the world work this way), but only the more modern marketplaces are forced to modify their relationships. I both as a customer and a occasional driver hate this, thankfully I am driving in Czechia where no such law would ever pass, the traditional taxi lobby is not as strong - but they're trying hard.
        root_axis 6y ago
        > There are other market players than Uber, and Uber is in no way a taxi monopoly True, but not relevant to my point which is that uber explicitly sets the rates, not drivers, and not the market. I understand why they do this, but it's simply false to say that drivers having the option to sometimes pass up on rides is the equivalent of setting their own rate.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago

Having no input into the rate is meaningless. If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate -- the rate is set at the point where they start declining work. Obviously that may mean they don't get as much work, but setting your own rate doesn't grant immunity from supply and demand. What would make this a lot easier is if the apps would just allow you to set a rate below which you're not willing to accept work. The reason they punish you for declining too often is that they don't want the rider to have to wait for multiple drivers who regularly decline all offers before finding one willing to accept it, so that would solve that because you wouldn't even get the offer. I'm curious to see how this shakes out in the end, because we keep getting these decisions where they say they're employees because X, but then won't they just change X to make them contractors again?

Pfhreak 6y ago
Is the amount a driver makes totally transparent to them ahead of accepting a ride, sufficient that they could refuse anything that makes them less than $XX/hour or travels to an area they don't want to travel to? Are drivers removed from the platform if they refuse too many rides? It seems like the drivers actually have very little power to enact any effective bargaining over rates in practice.
root_axis 6y ago
> If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate It is clearly not equivalent since uber literally determines the rate. Yes, they can refuse to work below a certain threshold but they aren't in-fact "setting the rate".
- emteycz 6y ago
  Uber does not determine the rate, the market does. Uber won't find drivers if the rate is too low, for example because it's lower than the costs, lower than the risk, or lower that the competition. Uber (and the driver too) won't find customers if the rate is too high.
  - root_axis 6y ago
    > Uber does not determine the rate, the market do Not true. Uber's algorithm sets the rate within certain profitability margins which are determined by uber, "the market" is very artificial since customers only ever see the rates that uber decides they should see rather than what some drivers would actually offer. > Uber won't find drivers if the rate is too low, for example because it's lower than the costs, lower than the risk, or lower that the competition. Uber (and the driver too) won't find customers if the rate is too high. Right... uber deliberately structures the market through their explicit control of the price. The price is only "too low" or "too high" with respect to uber's business goals not with respect to what the actual market would do.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      There are other market players than Uber, and Uber is in no way a taxi monopoly. You could say this about literally any marketplace and especially about any taxi company (nearly all taxi companies have independent drivers-contractors, usually driving their own but branded cars - at their own expense, and with exclusivity contracts; taxis all over the world work this way), but only the more modern marketplaces are forced to modify their relationships. I both as a customer and a occasional driver hate this, thankfully I am driving in Czechia where no such law would ever pass, the traditional taxi lobby is not as strong - but they're trying hard.
      - root_axis 6y ago
        > There are other market players than Uber, and Uber is in no way a taxi monopoly True, but not relevant to my point which is that uber explicitly sets the rates, not drivers, and not the market. I understand why they do this, but it's simply false to say that drivers having the option to sometimes pass up on rides is the equivalent of setting their own rate.