6 ms·

> Gig platforms take that power away. Pretty sure drivers have to "accept" a ride, isn't that agreeing to a rate?

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Based on court cases these articles are reporting on and modifications platforms have been making to driver interfaces due to AB5, no.
- emteycz 6y ago
  Based on reality, how is that different from IT contracting where I am responding to a contract with predetermined MD rate?
JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
Agreeing to a rate != setting your rate, and having the counter-party agree or disagree to your rate.
- munk-a 6y ago
  In actuality these actions aren't so different, I could offer my services to Microsoft at 200k an hour and they're free to decline me. I think the real issue here can't be resolved by an examination of terms - it involves a power dynamic where Uber contractors are extremely at disadvantage when it comes to being able to set your own rates. I don't know if Uber even has someone on staff that's qualified or expected to negotiate with independent drives that are interested - they have a posted rate that you either accept or they walk away. And, the worst part, they change that posted rate for BS reasons constantly in a way that people can't predict, it makes for an unreliable and misleading income.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Every software contract I've ever seen offers $x a day, or hour, or whatever. They don't just let you go in demanding whatever you want. There's a limit to what they want to pay. Just like Uber.
  - JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
    When it comes to standard W2 employment, an employer can also list $X/hr or an annual salary. You can absolutely go in and demand whatever you want. If you ask for 3x, you probably won't get the job. But 5% or 10% over x? It's possible. I don't see how contracting is 'locked in'. You are certainly free to negotiate, unlike on Uber or Lyft's platform.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
Pfhreak 6y ago
Pedantically, sure. Ethically, maybe? Legally -- we'll see how this case goes. I think it's reasonable to argue that because the contractor had no input into the rate, and if they decline too many rides they might be removed from the service, that they do not have the power to set rates.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  Having no input into the rate is meaningless. If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate -- the rate is set at the point where they start declining work. Obviously that may mean they don't get as much work, but setting your own rate doesn't grant immunity from supply and demand. What would make this a lot easier is if the apps would just allow you to set a rate below which you're not willing to accept work. The reason they punish you for declining too often is that they don't want the rider to have to wait for multiple drivers who regularly decline all offers before finding one willing to accept it, so that would solve that because you wouldn't even get the offer. I'm curious to see how this shakes out in the end, because we keep getting these decisions where they say they're employees because X, but then won't they just change X to make them contractors again?
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    Is the amount a driver makes totally transparent to them ahead of accepting a ride, sufficient that they could refuse anything that makes them less than $XX/hour or travels to an area they don't want to travel to? Are drivers removed from the platform if they refuse too many rides? It seems like the drivers actually have very little power to enact any effective bargaining over rates in practice.
  - root_axis 6y ago
    > If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate It is clearly not equivalent since uber literally determines the rate. Yes, they can refuse to work below a certain threshold but they aren't in-fact "setting the rate".
radicaldreamer 6y ago
If you don't accept nearly every ride, you are kicked off the platform...
- jy1 6y ago
  Not true - you can get logged out for inactivity, but you will never get banned or "fired"
- flak48 6y ago
  If I had a dispatch company that phoned/radioed possible drivers in some round robin order, if driver number 4 always tends to decline I would stop wasting my time and my rider's time in contacting him again, after a point
  - erik_seaberg 6y ago
    Do taxi dispatchers track how often a driver accepts a request but never shows up? It sounded really common back when I was driving airport shuttles.
  - root_axis 6y ago
    Sure, but in this example the situation only happens because the dispatcher controls all the prices, if the drivers could set their own prices then they would have no reason to decline.
    - zaroth 6y ago
      Economically the result is identical. The driver “sets their rate” above the market rate and drivers with lower rates get all the rides.
      - root_axis 6y ago
        No, it is not at all identical because riders only get to see the prices that uber wants them to see rather than all the rates that would be available if drivers could set their own rates, thus "the market rate" cannot escape a threshold that is contrary to uber's business prerogatives.

Based on court cases these articles are reporting on and modifications platforms have been making to driver interfaces due to AB5, no.

emteycz 6y ago
Based on reality, how is that different from IT contracting where I am responding to a contract with predetermined MD rate?

JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago

Agreeing to a rate != setting your rate, and having the counter-party agree or disagree to your rate.

munk-a 6y ago
In actuality these actions aren't so different, I could offer my services to Microsoft at 200k an hour and they're free to decline me. I think the real issue here can't be resolved by an examination of terms - it involves a power dynamic where Uber contractors are extremely at disadvantage when it comes to being able to set your own rates. I don't know if Uber even has someone on staff that's qualified or expected to negotiate with independent drives that are interested - they have a posted rate that you either accept or they walk away. And, the worst part, they change that posted rate for BS reasons constantly in a way that people can't predict, it makes for an unreliable and misleading income.
chrisseaton 6y ago
Every software contract I've ever seen offers $x a day, or hour, or whatever. They don't just let you go in demanding whatever you want. There's a limit to what they want to pay. Just like Uber.
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
  When it comes to standard W2 employment, an employer can also list $X/hr or an annual salary. You can absolutely go in and demand whatever you want. If you ask for 3x, you probably won't get the job. But 5% or 10% over x? It's possible. I don't see how contracting is 'locked in'. You are certainly free to negotiate, unlike on Uber or Lyft's platform.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

Pfhreak 6y ago

Pedantically, sure. Ethically, maybe? Legally -- we'll see how this case goes. I think it's reasonable to argue that because the contractor had no input into the rate, and if they decline too many rides they might be removed from the service, that they do not have the power to set rates.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
Having no input into the rate is meaningless. If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate -- the rate is set at the point where they start declining work. Obviously that may mean they don't get as much work, but setting your own rate doesn't grant immunity from supply and demand. What would make this a lot easier is if the apps would just allow you to set a rate below which you're not willing to accept work. The reason they punish you for declining too often is that they don't want the rider to have to wait for multiple drivers who regularly decline all offers before finding one willing to accept it, so that would solve that because you wouldn't even get the offer. I'm curious to see how this shakes out in the end, because we keep getting these decisions where they say they're employees because X, but then won't they just change X to make them contractors again?
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Is the amount a driver makes totally transparent to them ahead of accepting a ride, sufficient that they could refuse anything that makes them less than $XX/hour or travels to an area they don't want to travel to? Are drivers removed from the platform if they refuse too many rides? It seems like the drivers actually have very little power to enact any effective bargaining over rates in practice.
- root_axis 6y ago
  > If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate It is clearly not equivalent since uber literally determines the rate. Yes, they can refuse to work below a certain threshold but they aren't in-fact "setting the rate".

radicaldreamer 6y ago

If you don't accept nearly every ride, you are kicked off the platform...

jy1 6y ago
Not true - you can get logged out for inactivity, but you will never get banned or "fired"
flak48 6y ago
If I had a dispatch company that phoned/radioed possible drivers in some round robin order, if driver number 4 always tends to decline I would stop wasting my time and my rider's time in contacting him again, after a point
- erik_seaberg 6y ago
  Do taxi dispatchers track how often a driver accepts a request but never shows up? It sounded really common back when I was driving airport shuttles.
- root_axis 6y ago
  Sure, but in this example the situation only happens because the dispatcher controls all the prices, if the drivers could set their own prices then they would have no reason to decline.
  - zaroth 6y ago
    Economically the result is identical. The driver “sets their rate” above the market rate and drivers with lower rates get all the rides.
    - root_axis 6y ago
      No, it is not at all identical because riders only get to see the prices that uber wants them to see rather than all the rates that would be available if drivers could set their own rates, thus "the market rate" cannot escape a threshold that is contrary to uber's business prerogatives.