7 ms·

Do contractors really set their own rates?

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Yes? Who else would set them? Pedantically, the market sets the rates, but the contractor is the one with the power to say yes or no. Gig platforms take that power away (either through a reduction in rating or deplatfoming if you decline work requests). This is simply closing a loophole gig platforms were built on (misclassifying workers in violation of labor law).
- carlosdp 6y ago
  > Gig platforms take that power away. Pretty sure drivers have to "accept" a ride, isn't that agreeing to a rate?
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Based on court cases these articles are reporting on and modifications platforms have been making to driver interfaces due to AB5, no.
    - emteycz 6y ago
      Based on reality, how is that different from IT contracting where I am responding to a contract with predetermined MD rate?
  - JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
    Agreeing to a rate != setting your rate, and having the counter-party agree or disagree to your rate.
    - munk-a 6y ago
      In actuality these actions aren't so different, I could offer my services to Microsoft at 200k an hour and they're free to decline me. I think the real issue here can't be resolved by an examination of terms - it involves a power dynamic where Uber contractors are extremely at disadvantage when it comes to being able to set your own rates. I don't know if Uber even has someone on staff that's qualified or expected to negotiate with independent drives that are interested - they have a posted rate that you either accept or they walk away. And, the worst part, they change that posted rate for BS reasons constantly in a way that people can't predict, it makes for an unreliable and misleading income.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      Every software contract I've ever seen offers $x a day, or hour, or whatever. They don't just let you go in demanding whatever you want. There's a limit to what they want to pay. Just like Uber.
      - JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
        When it comes to standard W2 employment, an employer can also list $X/hr or an annual salary. You can absolutely go in and demand whatever you want. If you ask for 3x, you probably won't get the job. But 5% or 10% over x? It's possible. I don't see how contracting is 'locked in'. You are certainly free to negotiate, unlike on Uber or Lyft's platform.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    Pedantically, sure. Ethically, maybe? Legally -- we'll see how this case goes. I think it's reasonable to argue that because the contractor had no input into the rate, and if they decline too many rides they might be removed from the service, that they do not have the power to set rates.
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      Having no input into the rate is meaningless. If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate -- the rate is set at the point where they start declining work. Obviously that may mean they don't get as much work, but setting your own rate doesn't grant immunity from supply and demand. What would make this a lot easier is if the apps would just allow you to set a rate below which you're not willing to accept work. The reason they punish you for declining too often is that they don't want the rider to have to wait for multiple drivers who regularly decline all offers before finding one willing to accept it, so that would solve that because you wouldn't even get the offer. I'm curious to see how this shakes out in the end, because we keep getting these decisions where they say they're employees because X, but then won't they just change X to make them contractors again?
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        Is the amount a driver makes totally transparent to them ahead of accepting a ride, sufficient that they could refuse anything that makes them less than $XX/hour or travels to an area they don't want to travel to? Are drivers removed from the platform if they refuse too many rides? It seems like the drivers actually have very little power to enact any effective bargaining over rates in practice.
      - root_axis 6y ago
        > If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate It is clearly not equivalent since uber literally determines the rate. Yes, they can refuse to work below a certain threshold but they aren't in-fact "setting the rate".
  - radicaldreamer 6y ago
    If you don't accept nearly every ride, you are kicked off the platform...
    - jy1 6y ago
      Not true - you can get logged out for inactivity, but you will never get banned or "fired"
    - flak48 6y ago
      If I had a dispatch company that phoned/radioed possible drivers in some round robin order, if driver number 4 always tends to decline I would stop wasting my time and my rider's time in contacting him again, after a point
      - erik_seaberg 6y ago
        Do taxi dispatchers track how often a driver accepts a request but never shows up? It sounded really common back when I was driving airport shuttles.
      - root_axis 6y ago
        Sure, but in this example the situation only happens because the dispatcher controls all the prices, if the drivers could set their own prices then they would have no reason to decline.
        zaroth 6y ago
        Economically the result is identical. The driver “sets their rate” above the market rate and drivers with lower rates get all the rides.
        root_axis 6y ago
        No, it is not at all identical because riders only get to see the prices that uber wants them to see rather than all the rates that would be available if drivers could set their own rates, thus "the market rate" cannot escape a threshold that is contrary to uber's business prerogatives.
- jy1 6y ago
  Gig platforms neither decrease your rating / deplatform you if you decline work.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    They do, though. https://help.uber.com/driving-and-delivering/article/what-are-delivery-acceptance-rates?nodeId=76669c36-10c9-4695-ad73-3c38f1c4710f https://help.uber.com/driving-and-delivering/article/what-ar... https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013077708-Acceptance-rate https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013077708-Accepta...
    - ylyn 6y ago
      His point is that Uber and Lyft are not like normal gig platforms because of this.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        I’m not sure where you get that idea, but that’d be some serious No True Scotsmaning. https://help.doordash.com/dashers/s/article/Dasher-Ratings-Explained?language=en_US#acceptance%20rate https://help.doordash.com/dashers/s/article/Dasher-Ratings-E... https://driver-support.grubhub.com/hc/en-us/articles/360029867912-If-I-reject-a-future-offer-will-it-impact-my-acceptance-rate- https://driver-support.grubhub.com/hc/en-us/articles/3600298... https://taskers.taskrabbit.com/2018/06/01/acceptance-rate-what-is-it/ https://taskers.taskrabbit.com/2018/06/01/acceptance-rate-wh...
    - jy1 6y ago
      Did you even read these? Give me a single line that supports your assertion here.
      - jy1 6y ago
        To clarify, "Rating" is generally accepted as the "star rating" or some other statistics that users will see. Yes your "acceptance rate" will be affected, but this is a vanity metric that is secret to the driver => It is irrelevant. There is no mention of deplatforming in any of these articles.
heavyset_go 6y ago
Yes. As far as I'm aware, Uber and Lyft drivers are not able to set their own rates on the platforms.
- dpiers 6y ago
  Drivers who use the Uber platform in California are now able to set their own rates.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    The majority of people who drive for Uber are not in the parts of California where the justice system is upholding the law, though.
ajhurliman 6y ago
The answer for contract software engineering is: "Technically, but not really". You interview, then they offer you a job/ contract which pays a certain hourly amount, and you can accept/decline/counter offer just like a full time job. The equivalent here would be something like, "Okay candidate, I offer you a job as a contractor and the contract says you get paid based off of this algorithm. Accept or decline?"
- inopinatus 6y ago
  This is only true at the start of your career. I’ve been consulting and contracting for decades; customers call me following word-of-mouth recommendation and ask me what my rate is. Even when I was starting out, years ago, the palette of contract work offered was vast. I was never obliged to follow a cab-rank rule.
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
  Typically, you're employed by the contracting agency (with benefits), they work out a deal with the business and take a cut off the top, though we informally refer to this as contracting. If you were to set up an agreement with the software company yourself, then it'd be conventional contracting.
  - Cakez0r 6y ago
    Would the contractor be an employee of the contracting agency in this scenario?

Yes? Who else would set them? Pedantically, the market sets the rates, but the contractor is the one with the power to say yes or no. Gig platforms take that power away (either through a reduction in rating or deplatfoming if you decline work requests). This is simply closing a loophole gig platforms were built on (misclassifying workers in violation of labor law).

carlosdp 6y ago
> Gig platforms take that power away. Pretty sure drivers have to "accept" a ride, isn't that agreeing to a rate?
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Based on court cases these articles are reporting on and modifications platforms have been making to driver interfaces due to AB5, no.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    Based on reality, how is that different from IT contracting where I am responding to a contract with predetermined MD rate?
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
  Agreeing to a rate != setting your rate, and having the counter-party agree or disagree to your rate.
  - munk-a 6y ago
    In actuality these actions aren't so different, I could offer my services to Microsoft at 200k an hour and they're free to decline me. I think the real issue here can't be resolved by an examination of terms - it involves a power dynamic where Uber contractors are extremely at disadvantage when it comes to being able to set your own rates. I don't know if Uber even has someone on staff that's qualified or expected to negotiate with independent drives that are interested - they have a posted rate that you either accept or they walk away. And, the worst part, they change that posted rate for BS reasons constantly in a way that people can't predict, it makes for an unreliable and misleading income.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    Every software contract I've ever seen offers $x a day, or hour, or whatever. They don't just let you go in demanding whatever you want. There's a limit to what they want to pay. Just like Uber.
    - JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
      When it comes to standard W2 employment, an employer can also list $X/hr or an annual salary. You can absolutely go in and demand whatever you want. If you ask for 3x, you probably won't get the job. But 5% or 10% over x? It's possible. I don't see how contracting is 'locked in'. You are certainly free to negotiate, unlike on Uber or Lyft's platform.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Pedantically, sure. Ethically, maybe? Legally -- we'll see how this case goes. I think it's reasonable to argue that because the contractor had no input into the rate, and if they decline too many rides they might be removed from the service, that they do not have the power to set rates.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    Having no input into the rate is meaningless. If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate -- the rate is set at the point where they start declining work. Obviously that may mean they don't get as much work, but setting your own rate doesn't grant immunity from supply and demand. What would make this a lot easier is if the apps would just allow you to set a rate below which you're not willing to accept work. The reason they punish you for declining too often is that they don't want the rider to have to wait for multiple drivers who regularly decline all offers before finding one willing to accept it, so that would solve that because you wouldn't even get the offer. I'm curious to see how this shakes out in the end, because we keep getting these decisions where they say they're employees because X, but then won't they just change X to make them contractors again?
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      Is the amount a driver makes totally transparent to them ahead of accepting a ride, sufficient that they could refuse anything that makes them less than $XX/hour or travels to an area they don't want to travel to? Are drivers removed from the platform if they refuse too many rides? It seems like the drivers actually have very little power to enact any effective bargaining over rates in practice.
    - root_axis 6y ago
      > If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate It is clearly not equivalent since uber literally determines the rate. Yes, they can refuse to work below a certain threshold but they aren't in-fact "setting the rate".
- radicaldreamer 6y ago
  If you don't accept nearly every ride, you are kicked off the platform...
  - jy1 6y ago
    Not true - you can get logged out for inactivity, but you will never get banned or "fired"
  - flak48 6y ago
    If I had a dispatch company that phoned/radioed possible drivers in some round robin order, if driver number 4 always tends to decline I would stop wasting my time and my rider's time in contacting him again, after a point
    - erik_seaberg 6y ago
      Do taxi dispatchers track how often a driver accepts a request but never shows up? It sounded really common back when I was driving airport shuttles.
    - root_axis 6y ago
      Sure, but in this example the situation only happens because the dispatcher controls all the prices, if the drivers could set their own prices then they would have no reason to decline.
      - zaroth 6y ago
        Economically the result is identical. The driver “sets their rate” above the market rate and drivers with lower rates get all the rides.
        root_axis 6y ago
        No, it is not at all identical because riders only get to see the prices that uber wants them to see rather than all the rates that would be available if drivers could set their own rates, thus "the market rate" cannot escape a threshold that is contrary to uber's business prerogatives.
jy1 6y ago
Gig platforms neither decrease your rating / deplatform you if you decline work.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  They do, though. https://help.uber.com/driving-and-delivering/article/what-are-delivery-acceptance-rates?nodeId=76669c36-10c9-4695-ad73-3c38f1c4710f https://help.uber.com/driving-and-delivering/article/what-ar... https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013077708-Acceptance-rate https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013077708-Accepta...
  - ylyn 6y ago
    His point is that Uber and Lyft are not like normal gig platforms because of this.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      I’m not sure where you get that idea, but that’d be some serious No True Scotsmaning. https://help.doordash.com/dashers/s/article/Dasher-Ratings-Explained?language=en_US#acceptance%20rate https://help.doordash.com/dashers/s/article/Dasher-Ratings-E... https://driver-support.grubhub.com/hc/en-us/articles/360029867912-If-I-reject-a-future-offer-will-it-impact-my-acceptance-rate- https://driver-support.grubhub.com/hc/en-us/articles/3600298... https://taskers.taskrabbit.com/2018/06/01/acceptance-rate-what-is-it/ https://taskers.taskrabbit.com/2018/06/01/acceptance-rate-wh...
  - jy1 6y ago
    Did you even read these? Give me a single line that supports your assertion here.
    - jy1 6y ago
      To clarify, "Rating" is generally accepted as the "star rating" or some other statistics that users will see. Yes your "acceptance rate" will be affected, but this is a vanity metric that is secret to the driver => It is irrelevant. There is no mention of deplatforming in any of these articles.

heavyset_go 6y ago

Yes. As far as I'm aware, Uber and Lyft drivers are not able to set their own rates on the platforms.

dpiers 6y ago
Drivers who use the Uber platform in California are now able to set their own rates.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  The majority of people who drive for Uber are not in the parts of California where the justice system is upholding the law, though.

ajhurliman 6y ago

The answer for contract software engineering is: "Technically, but not really". You interview, then they offer you a job/ contract which pays a certain hourly amount, and you can accept/decline/counter offer just like a full time job. The equivalent here would be something like, "Okay candidate, I offer you a job as a contractor and the contract says you get paid based off of this algorithm. Accept or decline?"

inopinatus 6y ago
This is only true at the start of your career. I’ve been consulting and contracting for decades; customers call me following word-of-mouth recommendation and ask me what my rate is. Even when I was starting out, years ago, the palette of contract work offered was vast. I was never obliged to follow a cab-rank rule.
JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
Typically, you're employed by the contracting agency (with benefits), they work out a deal with the business and take a cut off the top, though we informally refer to this as contracting. If you were to set up an agreement with the software company yourself, then it'd be conventional contracting.
- Cakez0r 6y ago
  Would the contractor be an employee of the contracting agency in this scenario?