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Some things, like not being able to set their own rates, meant drivers were never contractors, even if they wanted the perks of contracting (e.g, choose your ow
by JMTQp8lwXL 6y ago
Some things, like not being able to set their own rates, meant drivers were never contractors, even if they wanted the perks of contracting (e.g, choose your own hours). Saying 'I wish to be a contractor' isn't legally sufficient: the agreement needs to permit setting rates.
- foogazi 6y agoDo contractors really set their own rates?
- toomuchtodo 6y agoYes? Who else would set them? Pedantically, the market sets the rates, but the contractor is the one with the power to say yes or no. Gig platforms take that power away (either through a reduction in rating or deplatfoming if you decline work requests). This is simply closing a loophole gig platforms were built on (misclassifying workers in violation of labor law).
- carlosdp 6y ago> Gig platforms take that power away. Pretty sure drivers have to "accept" a ride, isn't that agreeing to a rate?
- toomuchtodo 6y agoBased on court cases these articles are reporting on and modifications platforms have been making to driver interfaces due to AB5, no.
- emteycz 6y agoBased on reality, how is that different from IT contracting where I am responding to a contract with predetermined MD rate?
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y agoAgreeing to a rate != setting your rate, and having the counter-party agree or disagree to your rate.
- munk-a 6y agoIn actuality these actions aren't so different, I could offer my services to Microsoft at 200k an hour and they're free to decline me. I think the real issue here can't be resolved by an examination of terms - it involves a power dynamic where Uber contractors are extremely at disadvantage when it comes to being able to set your own rates. I don't know if Uber even has someone on staff that's qualified or expected to negotiate with independent drives that are interested - they have a posted rate that you either accept or they walk away. And, the worst part, they change that posted rate for BS reasons constantly in a way that people can't predict, it makes for an unreliable and misleading income.
- chrisseaton 6y agoEvery software contract I've ever seen offers $x a day, or hour, or whatever. They don't just let you go in demanding whatever you want. There's a limit to what they want to pay. Just like Uber.
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y agoWhen it comes to standard W2 employment, an employer can also list $X/hr or an annual salary. You can absolutely go in and demand whatever you want. If you ask for 3x, you probably won't get the job. But 5% or 10% over x? It's possible. I don't see how contracting is 'locked in'. You are certainly free to negotiate, unlike on Uber or Lyft's platform.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Pfhreak 6y agoPedantically, sure. Ethically, maybe? Legally -- we'll see how this case goes. I think it's reasonable to argue that because the contractor had no input into the rate, and if they decline too many rides they might be removed from the service, that they do not have the power to set rates.
- AnthonyMouse 6y agoHaving no input into the rate is meaningless. If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate -- the rate is set at the point where they start declining work. Obviously that may mean they don't get as much work, but setting your own rate doesn't grant immunity from supply and demand. What would make this a lot easier is if the apps would just allow you to set a rate below which you're not willing to accept work. The reason they punish you for declining too often is that they don't want the rider to have to wait for multiple drivers who regularly decline all offers before finding one willing to accept it, so that would solve that because you wouldn't even get the offer. I'm curious to see how this shakes out in the end, because we keep getting these decisions where they say they're employees because X, but then won't they just change X to make them contractors again?
- Pfhreak 6y agoIs the amount a driver makes totally transparent to them ahead of accepting a ride, sufficient that they could refuse anything that makes them less than $XX/hour or travels to an area they don't want to travel to? Are drivers removed from the platform if they refuse too many rides? It seems like the drivers actually have very little power to enact any effective bargaining over rates in practice.
- root_axis 6y ago> If they can decline work below a given rate then that's equivalent to setting their own rate It is clearly not equivalent since uber literally determines the rate. Yes, they can refuse to work below a certain threshold but they aren't in-fact "setting the rate".
- radicaldreamer 6y agoIf you don't accept nearly every ride, you are kicked off the platform...
- jy1 6y agoNot true - you can get logged out for inactivity, but you will never get banned or "fired"
- flak48 6y agoIf I had a dispatch company that phoned/radioed possible drivers in some round robin order, if driver number 4 always tends to decline I would stop wasting my time and my rider's time in contacting him again, after a point
- erik_seaberg 6y agoDo taxi dispatchers track how often a driver accepts a request but never shows up? It sounded really common back when I was driving airport shuttles.
- root_axis 6y agoSure, but in this example the situation only happens because the dispatcher controls all the prices, if the drivers could set their own prices then they would have no reason to decline.
- zaroth 6y agoEconomically the result is identical. The driver “sets their rate” above the market rate and drivers with lower rates get all the rides.
- root_axis 6y agoNo, it is not at all identical because riders only get to see the prices that uber wants them to see rather than all the rates that would be available if drivers could set their own rates, thus "the market rate" cannot escape a threshold that is contrary to uber's business prerogatives.
- jy1 6y agoGig platforms neither decrease your rating / deplatform you if you decline work.
- ceejayoz 6y agoThey do, though. https://help.uber.com/driving-and-delivering/article/what-are-delivery-acceptance-rates?nodeId=76669c36-10c9-4695-ad73-3c38f1c4710f https://help.uber.com/driving-and-delivering/article/what-ar... https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013077708-Acceptance-rate https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013077708-Accepta...
- ylyn 6y agoHis point is that Uber and Lyft are not like normal gig platforms because of this.
- ceejayoz 6y agoI’m not sure where you get that idea, but that’d be some serious No True Scotsmaning. https://help.doordash.com/dashers/s/article/Dasher-Ratings-Explained?language=en_US#acceptance%20rate https://help.doordash.com/dashers/s/article/Dasher-Ratings-E... https://driver-support.grubhub.com/hc/en-us/articles/360029867912-If-I-reject-a-future-offer-will-it-impact-my-acceptance-rate- https://driver-support.grubhub.com/hc/en-us/articles/3600298... https://taskers.taskrabbit.com/2018/06/01/acceptance-rate-what-is-it/ https://taskers.taskrabbit.com/2018/06/01/acceptance-rate-wh...
- jy1 6y agoDid you even read these? Give me a single line that supports your assertion here.
- jy1 6y agoTo clarify, "Rating" is generally accepted as the "star rating" or some other statistics that users will see. Yes your "acceptance rate" will be affected, but this is a vanity metric that is secret to the driver => It is irrelevant. There is no mention of deplatforming in any of these articles.
- heavyset_go 6y agoYes. As far as I'm aware, Uber and Lyft drivers are not able to set their own rates on the platforms.
- dpiers 6y agoDrivers who use the Uber platform in California are now able to set their own rates.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- heavyset_go 6y agoThe majority of people who drive for Uber are not in the parts of California where the justice system is upholding the law, though.
- ajhurliman 6y agoThe answer for contract software engineering is: "Technically, but not really". You interview, then they offer you a job/ contract which pays a certain hourly amount, and you can accept/decline/counter offer just like a full time job. The equivalent here would be something like, "Okay candidate, I offer you a job as a contractor and the contract says you get paid based off of this algorithm. Accept or decline?"
- inopinatus 6y agoThis is only true at the start of your career. I’ve been consulting and contracting for decades; customers call me following word-of-mouth recommendation and ask me what my rate is. Even when I was starting out, years ago, the palette of contract work offered was vast. I was never obliged to follow a cab-rank rule.
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y agoTypically, you're employed by the contracting agency (with benefits), they work out a deal with the business and take a cut off the top, though we informally refer to this as contracting. If you were to set up an agreement with the software company yourself, then it'd be conventional contracting.
- Cakez0r 6y agoWould the contractor be an employee of the contracting agency in this scenario?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- gok 6y agoI don't know where this meme started. Taxi drivers have never set their own rates and have always been contractors.
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y agoThis is an interesting flavor of ad hominem. While the post isn't a personal attack, it severely degrades the argument by calling it a 'meme'. Omitting the first sentence, and leaving the second, would be far more effective. https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7512/15985103560_ed7985fc2a_o.jpg https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7512/15985103560_ed7985fc2a_o...
- Karunamon 6y agoPeople are deserving of respect, arguments less so. I see no reason to grant any particular deference to a sentence.
- JMTQp8lwXL 6y agoSaying an argument is false because it's a meme isn't a rational way to argue against a thought. You argue against things with facts and evidence. It's more disrespectful of the opposition if that's the strongest remark the opposition can make. I suppose the great-grandparent is more an 'appeal to emotion' fallacy rather than ad hominem.
- closeparen 6y agoThe word "meme" isn't doing any argumentative work here. It's just a handle for the claim that's being contested, with some extra connotation that the claim is typical or customary rather than unique to this thread.
- gok 6y agoWould it be better if I called it a "misconception" perhaps? If it matters, I meant it in the "idea that spreads between people" sense, not the animal-gif-with-block-text sense.
- nomad543 6y agoUber can say that drivers can set their own rates but they can only afford certain rate. Wouldn't this work?
- omgwtfbyobbq 6y agoIt's ultimately the passenger who would afford or not afford whatever rate. If drivers were truly contractors, Uber would just act as a a middleman and take a cut of whatever rate the driver set. Edit - Or allow customers to set the rate, and again take a cut of whatever that was.
- rdlecler1 6y agoYou set your own rate by accepting the ride or not?
- rdgthree 6y agoThis is certainly the (fairly robust) legal argument. My hesitation is that I think a significant amount of drivers prefer and would benefit from the arrangement that Uber and Lyft have set up, and it's a shame that we aren't discussing how to write legislation to fit those people in. It just feels like forcing everyone to be an employee will box out a large number of happy part-time drivers who weren't too concerned with setting their own rates.
- akiselev 6y agoThe part time drivers aren't the problem, it doesn't cost much to move them into being employees assuming they made above minimum wage to begin with. The problem is with all the people working uber full time and over 40 hours a week. At that point, a lot of things get more expensive like the burden of providing health insurance
- dahfizz 6y agoI agree. I think the "gig-economy" is clearly a third type of worker - not quite and employee and not quite a contractor. It makes sense to embrace that and make sure everyone benefits the most, instead of shoving this new situation into an old leagl framework that doesn't quite fit.
- behringer 6y agoSo we can have a worker with even less rights than a contractor? Sounds absolutely terrible.
- d0gbread 6y agoThat isn't remotely what the comment you're replying to said. I agree that thinking about the gig economy as a different type of worker opens to door to a "how might we" conversation where everyone has the opportunity to win.
- x0 6y ago> thinking about the gig economy as a different type of worker opens to door to a "how might we" conversation where everyone has the opportunity to win. We, the readers of Hacker News, are going to fix the gig economy! Everyone, download a copy of your local laws and send a pull request to your country's highest Court. But seriously, I think having a discussion, working out a perfect system where we'll all be better off is more than a bit hopeful.
- jedberg 6y agoNot all contractors set their own rates. Sometimes they bid on an already published rate. Which is what happens here. Uber/Lyft tell you what you will make before the ride starts. If you accept, you just set your own rate.
- MAGZine 6y agoexcept uber/lyft will remove you from the platform if you decline too many rides, thereby only giving the illusion of choice.
- erichocean 6y agoHow is that any different from Patreon suspending user accounts due to ToS violations? Are companies free to suspend accounts for any reason or not?
- YawningAngel 6y agoYou are free to fire a contractor for any reason, but if you consistently fire contractors for doing things that you would prefer that they not do but which you cannot mandate they not do because they are not employees, then you undermine the claim that they are in fact contractors.
- totony 6y agoIf a contractor always overcharge you it seems normal to stop business with him, how is this different?
- ClumsyPilot 6y agoIf by overcharging you mean billing for more hours than were in fact done, that's fraud and is a different matter entirely. Obviously you may stop working with a person if their prices are too high or because quality of their work is shit. However if you use this as a pretence for firing contractors, but the real reason you are firing them is because of their sex / gender / race - that would be illegal. In the same vein, if you fire contractors for doing things that are none of your business, and it is common knowledge that you do that and exercise control you should not have over them, then a court may decide that in fact the relationship is not that of a contractor. That in fact this is nothing more than a legal fiction created for the purpose of tax avoidance or similar.
- repsilat 6y agoOme might as well say that "Some things, like being able to work for Uber's competitors, meant that drivers were never employees." This is a fuzzy line.
- taftster 6y agoI get what you're saying, but I don't think "setting their own rates" has anything to do with it. Any driver would be able to set their own rates by going at it alone, completely independent from a ride share company. They would create their own service and charge what they want. However, because the drivers choose to participate in the Uber/Lyft marketplace and benefit from the network affects that they have created, it follows that Uber/Lyft would have a say in the cost of goods sold in that marketplace. Just because the drivers can't set their own rates doesn't mean they aren't independent contractors. If I hire you to mow my lawn, we mutually come to an agreement of what time and price you would perform the service. Just because you want to work for $100 / hour doesn't mean I'm willing to pay that. And because I'm only willing to pay a certain price only for your services doesn't make you an employee. I think it's that simple. Uber/Lyft have a price they are willing to pay for services. They even allow their drivers to pick their own schedule (unlike my lawn service example). Drivers are not setting the price directly with the customers, they are getting paid by Uber/Lyft, but that doesn't make them employees.
- popinman322 6y agoIn your lawn care example you used the word "mutually". That is a difference between the Lyft/Uber relationship with drivers and your relationship with the lawn care contractor. Maybe if Lyft/Uber allowed drivers to bid on rides drivers would become more contractor-esque? But then the latency would be much higher for users. The system would likely also regress to the proposed price, as well, since drivers would likely just accept the price proposed by the platform to save time.
- taftster 6y agoYou are expecting that Uber/Lyft creates an "auction" environment in order for their drivers to be considered contractors? In my world view, an auction is not requirement for a driver to be considered independent. Drivers can: - drive on their own schedule - drive for competing ride share services (concurrently even) - drive for themselves - not drive at all Seems very independent contractor. Uber/Lyft created a marketplace; drivers are agreeing to drive within the constraints of that marketplace. They can also create their own customer relationships and ride share marketplace if they choose. If Uber/Lyft imposed restrictions on things like who a driver could give rides to or restricted concurrent ride share engagements, then that starts to feel like an employee. Rates have very little to do with it, in my humble opinion.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- mysterEFrank 6y agoUber drivers now set their own rates in California
- tynpeddler 6y agoDrivers set their own rates via a reverse dutch auction. Uber offers a short term contract at a certain rate. If no contractor accepts that rate, Uber increases the contract rate until someone accepts.
- redorb 6y agoIsn't selecting their own job - at least a bit related to selecting their own rate.. I guess uber could put the jobs up for bid.. to address that.
- antasvara 6y agoWhat you seem to be advocating for is a service something like Fiverr, where drivers set their own prices and Uber/Lyft takes a 20% cut off the top.
- nilsbunger 6y agoWhat if Uber adds an option where a driver can set a minimum rate per mile or per estimated minute, does that shift the balance back to making them contractors again?