6 ms·

Progressives are against requiring voter ID because IDs are not ubiquitous and freely available. There would be no argument against voter ID laws if every Amer

by slg 6y ago

Progressives are against requiring voter ID because IDs are not ubiquitous and freely available. There would be no argument against voter ID laws if every American was guaranteed a free and easily acquired ID which would be more practical with this type of national database. It is usually conservatives that are against that policy of free and easy to acquire ID.

ThA0x2 6y ago
The IDs that are required to vote in Republican states are either free of charge, or they allow alternative ID documents. Texas being a fine example: https://www.votetexas.gov/mobile/id-faqs.htm https://www.votetexas.gov/mobile/id-faqs.htm There are free options that are easy to aquire. Not sure why there are so many myths about this.
- slg 6y ago
  Which of those IDs is available for free? I just checked the state website and they charge for drivers licenses and state IDs and all the federal IDs require money. They at least offer the alternate forms of ID, but those still eliminate people. A homeless person is probably not going to have any of those documents on hand, but they have every right to vote. There is also the inherent problem of singling out people without ID for further scrutiny. This added "security" has notoriously been used as a method to suppress the vote over the course of US history. The simple act of requiring someone to state on a government form they can't "reasonably" obtain an ID is going to scare some people off from voting. What is "reasonable"? Am I going to be charged with voter fraud if I simply didn't want to spend the money on an ID? Will I end up in jail for voting? There is a chilling effect here.
  - ThA0x2 6y ago
    >Which of those IDs is available for free? I just checked the state website and they charge for drivers licenses and state IDs The Texas Election Identification Certificate ID is free. >and all the federal IDs require money. Wrong. Military and veteran IDs are federal IDs that are free of charge. >They at least offer the alternate forms of ID, but those still eliminate people. A homeless person is probably not going to have any of those documents on hand, but they have every right to vote. They wouldn't have been allowed to vote under the previous system either. This is a red herring. > There is also the inherent problem of singling out people without ID for further scrutiny. This added "security" has notoriously been used as a method to suppress the vote over the course of US history. There is no "further scrutiny". You either have the documentation that proves your eligibility to vote in your locality, or you don't. Studies showed that Voter ID laws have little to no effect on turn out. > The simple act of requiring someone to state on a government form they can't "reasonably" obtain an ID is going to scare some people off from voting. No doubt, but in Texas and in many other states, they are reasonably attainable, and have no fees. Somewhat of a straw man here. Again, studies showed that Voter ID laws have little to no effect on turn out. > What is "reasonable"? Am I going to be charged with voter fraud if I simply didn't want to spend the money on an ID? No, you just won't be allowed to vote. You won't be charged with any crime. Also, you don't spend money on fees, the above ID mentioned is free. > Will I end up in jail for voting? There is a chilling effect here. This is all conjecture. There is no chilling effect on requiring a free voter ID according to the studies.
    - slg 6y ago
      >The Texas Election Identification Certificate ID is free. Which itself requires ID to acquire defeating its purpose as an alternative ID for people without ID. >Wrong. Military and veteran IDs are federal IDs that are free of charge. I was referring to the IDs available to the general public. A military ID being free is irrelevant to a huge majority of the US. >They wouldn't have been allowed to vote under the previous system either. This is a red herring. How is that a red herring? A flaw existing in both the old and new system doesn't mean it isn't a flaw. Do you think disenfranchising homeless people is acceptable? >There is no "further scrutiny". You either have the documentation that proves your eligibility to vote in your locality, or you don't. Studies showed that Voter ID laws have little to no effect on turn out. It takes added time and requires further documentation. The time it takes to vote has been shown to have an impact on voter turnout. Also I don't know what studies you are talking about. Here is one from a nonpartisan Government Accountability Office that says the exact opposite[1]. Your other points all rely on something refuted in the above points. [1]- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/10/09/gao-voter-id-laws-in-kansas-and-tennessee-dropped-2012-turnout-by-over-100000-votes/?arc404=true https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/10/09/ga...
      - ThA0x2 6y ago
        >Which itself requires ID to acquire defeating its purpose as an alternative ID for people without ID. You need documentation to prove you're eligible to vote in your locality in order to be able to vote in your locality. The is the same logic behind any type of identification/registration, Voter ID or not. >I was referring to the IDs available to the general public. A military ID being free is irrelevant to a huge majority of the US. You specifically stated "all the federal IDs require money", which is patently false, QED. >How is that a red herring? A flaw existing in both the old and new system doesn't mean it isn't a flaw. Do you think disenfranchising homeless people is acceptable? It is by definition a red herring because being a flaw or not is immaterial to the discussion at hand since it is not specific to Voter ID laws. You asking the question is a textbook logical fallacy. >It takes added time and requires further documentation. The time it takes to vote has been shown to have an impact on voter turnout. Sometimes it takes time to leverage your rights. Gun background checks is an example of that, as are voter ID laws. There is no conclusive study that has shown voter ID laws impact turnout. > Also I don't know what studies you are talking about. Here is one from a nonpartisan Government Accountability Office that says the exact opposite You linked a piece from a laughably biased news source. It even states opposite of your claim: "That change wasn't entirely due to voter ID, of course, but the GAO report suggests it played a part." "In a 2014 review by the Government Accountability Office of the academic literature, five studies out of ten found that voter ID laws had no significant effect on overall turnout, four studies found that voter ID laws decreased overall turnout, and one study found that the laws increased overall turnout." "Studies of the effects of voter ID laws on turnout in the United States have generally found that such laws have little, if any, effect on turnout." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_...
  - nostromo 6y ago
    The Election Identification Certificate is free.
    - slg 6y ago
      I'm far from an expert in Texas election law, but here is what I found in a quick Google search[1]. In order to get an Election Identification Certificate you need to go to a DMV office during business hours with a proof of citizenship and a proof of identity. It sounds like the existence of this ID is redundant if you need ID to acquire it. It almost seems designed solely to counter people when they complain voter ID laws are the equivalent of a poll tax. [1] - https://www.dps.texas.gov/driverlicense/electionid.htm https://www.dps.texas.gov/driverlicense/electionid.htm
      - google234123 6y ago
        How can you live in this society without some proof of identity?
        slg 6y ago
        It is very easy in the US, especially in either very urban or very rural communities. If you don't drive on public roads and are already established in life with a job or bank account, you probably don't actually need an ID for much in your day to day life. Even activities that we normally think of as requiring an ID like traveling on a plane are possible without an ID if you are willing to jump through some hoops.
      - metiscus 6y ago
        Yes. In order to avail onesself of the benefits of citizenship one must establish that they are in fact a citizen.
        slg 6y ago
        Why do you need to validate citizenship when issuing a voter ID if citizenship was already validated when registering to vote? That seems like a completely redundant requirement that is only put in place to make it slightly more difficult to acquire said ID.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
  Then it's even better than in Europe, you usually pay a small tax to get documents. Then what is this fuzz about having a proper documents to vote about? Republicans being suspicious about the fraud has merit.
  - slg 6y ago
    Requiring any tax in order to allow someone to vote is expressly illegal in the US as it used to be abused as a form of voter suppression. From our Constitution (24th Amendment, Section 1)[1]: >The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fourth_Amendment_to_the...
    - 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
      Well you need a home too to vote? Or how do they send you the envelope otherwise? Isn't that a tax as well. I could count tons on items, where's the line? Transport to polling station? Clothes to show up?
      - slg 6y ago
        You do not need a home or address to vote. You can setup your mail to be sent to a shelter, a social worker, or any number of other options. The US Postal Service has also been known to deliver to places that don't have official addresses so you might even be able to get something delivered to the "red tent behind the Walmart". You can also generally pick up whatever you need from the local elections office. Numerous services exist to provide free rides to polling places including some publicly owned transportation options. The right to vote does not excuse you committing crimes in order to vote and being naked is generally illegal is most of the US which would probably be what prevents you from voting without clothes.
caseysoftware 6y ago
I would love to test this theory. Imagine a state completely waives their fees for a State ID (usually only $10-20 anyway) in exchange for Voter ID laws. Do you think progressives could support it then? Would you?
- hakfoo 6y ago
  Even aside from the fee, there's the time involved, which is an indirect burden on many people. For whatever historical reason, we've entrusted the DMV with validating everyone's identity. The one which is open 9-4 M-F in the best conditions, and has been basically shuttered since Coronavirus. In some states, you can go to 'third-party offices' which are privately run and offer longer hours, but it's still a several hour endeavour (and then you're paying $30 extra for their services).
- cmorgan31 6y ago
  Sure, just don’t make the waiver some joke that requires as many hoops to jump through as possible to discourage voters. Voter fraud isn’t as significant an issue as electioneering but if an ID makes one side of the fence happy I’ll support it so long as it remains free and universally available.
- slg 6y ago
  I said free and easy to acquire. It wouldn't be enough for states to waive the fees if there are still hoops to jump through to acquire it. Getting an ID in many states requires spending hours at a DMV office that is probably only open during business hours and might be in the next county over from you. Voting should be an easy and seamless process. It shouldn't require hours of administrative prep work beforehand.
  - caseysoftware 6y ago
    Getting a driver license the first time requires hours of sitting at the DMV. When I first moved to Texas, I had to do it twice in fact. It sounds like your criticism is of government (or at least DMV) complexity/ineffectiveness in general, not the ID laws specifically.

by slg 6y ago

ThA0x2 6y ago

The IDs that are required to vote in Republican states are either free of charge, or they allow alternative ID documents. Texas being a fine example: https://www.votetexas.gov/mobile/id-faqs.htm https://www.votetexas.gov/mobile/id-faqs.htm There are free options that are easy to aquire. Not sure why there are so many myths about this.

slg 6y ago
Which of those IDs is available for free? I just checked the state website and they charge for drivers licenses and state IDs and all the federal IDs require money. They at least offer the alternate forms of ID, but those still eliminate people. A homeless person is probably not going to have any of those documents on hand, but they have every right to vote. There is also the inherent problem of singling out people without ID for further scrutiny. This added "security" has notoriously been used as a method to suppress the vote over the course of US history. The simple act of requiring someone to state on a government form they can't "reasonably" obtain an ID is going to scare some people off from voting. What is "reasonable"? Am I going to be charged with voter fraud if I simply didn't want to spend the money on an ID? Will I end up in jail for voting? There is a chilling effect here.
- ThA0x2 6y ago
  >Which of those IDs is available for free? I just checked the state website and they charge for drivers licenses and state IDs The Texas Election Identification Certificate ID is free. >and all the federal IDs require money. Wrong. Military and veteran IDs are federal IDs that are free of charge. >They at least offer the alternate forms of ID, but those still eliminate people. A homeless person is probably not going to have any of those documents on hand, but they have every right to vote. They wouldn't have been allowed to vote under the previous system either. This is a red herring. > There is also the inherent problem of singling out people without ID for further scrutiny. This added "security" has notoriously been used as a method to suppress the vote over the course of US history. There is no "further scrutiny". You either have the documentation that proves your eligibility to vote in your locality, or you don't. Studies showed that Voter ID laws have little to no effect on turn out. > The simple act of requiring someone to state on a government form they can't "reasonably" obtain an ID is going to scare some people off from voting. No doubt, but in Texas and in many other states, they are reasonably attainable, and have no fees. Somewhat of a straw man here. Again, studies showed that Voter ID laws have little to no effect on turn out. > What is "reasonable"? Am I going to be charged with voter fraud if I simply didn't want to spend the money on an ID? No, you just won't be allowed to vote. You won't be charged with any crime. Also, you don't spend money on fees, the above ID mentioned is free. > Will I end up in jail for voting? There is a chilling effect here. This is all conjecture. There is no chilling effect on requiring a free voter ID according to the studies.
  - slg 6y ago
    >The Texas Election Identification Certificate ID is free. Which itself requires ID to acquire defeating its purpose as an alternative ID for people without ID. >Wrong. Military and veteran IDs are federal IDs that are free of charge. I was referring to the IDs available to the general public. A military ID being free is irrelevant to a huge majority of the US. >They wouldn't have been allowed to vote under the previous system either. This is a red herring. How is that a red herring? A flaw existing in both the old and new system doesn't mean it isn't a flaw. Do you think disenfranchising homeless people is acceptable? >There is no "further scrutiny". You either have the documentation that proves your eligibility to vote in your locality, or you don't. Studies showed that Voter ID laws have little to no effect on turn out. It takes added time and requires further documentation. The time it takes to vote has been shown to have an impact on voter turnout. Also I don't know what studies you are talking about. Here is one from a nonpartisan Government Accountability Office that says the exact opposite[1]. Your other points all rely on something refuted in the above points. [1]- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/10/09/gao-voter-id-laws-in-kansas-and-tennessee-dropped-2012-turnout-by-over-100000-votes/?arc404=true https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/10/09/ga...
    - ThA0x2 6y ago
      >Which itself requires ID to acquire defeating its purpose as an alternative ID for people without ID. You need documentation to prove you're eligible to vote in your locality in order to be able to vote in your locality. The is the same logic behind any type of identification/registration, Voter ID or not. >I was referring to the IDs available to the general public. A military ID being free is irrelevant to a huge majority of the US. You specifically stated "all the federal IDs require money", which is patently false, QED. >How is that a red herring? A flaw existing in both the old and new system doesn't mean it isn't a flaw. Do you think disenfranchising homeless people is acceptable? It is by definition a red herring because being a flaw or not is immaterial to the discussion at hand since it is not specific to Voter ID laws. You asking the question is a textbook logical fallacy. >It takes added time and requires further documentation. The time it takes to vote has been shown to have an impact on voter turnout. Sometimes it takes time to leverage your rights. Gun background checks is an example of that, as are voter ID laws. There is no conclusive study that has shown voter ID laws impact turnout. > Also I don't know what studies you are talking about. Here is one from a nonpartisan Government Accountability Office that says the exact opposite You linked a piece from a laughably biased news source. It even states opposite of your claim: "That change wasn't entirely due to voter ID, of course, but the GAO report suggests it played a part." "In a 2014 review by the Government Accountability Office of the academic literature, five studies out of ten found that voter ID laws had no significant effect on overall turnout, four studies found that voter ID laws decreased overall turnout, and one study found that the laws increased overall turnout." "Studies of the effects of voter ID laws on turnout in the United States have generally found that such laws have little, if any, effect on turnout." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_...
- nostromo 6y ago
  The Election Identification Certificate is free.
  - slg 6y ago
    I'm far from an expert in Texas election law, but here is what I found in a quick Google search[1]. In order to get an Election Identification Certificate you need to go to a DMV office during business hours with a proof of citizenship and a proof of identity. It sounds like the existence of this ID is redundant if you need ID to acquire it. It almost seems designed solely to counter people when they complain voter ID laws are the equivalent of a poll tax. [1] - https://www.dps.texas.gov/driverlicense/electionid.htm https://www.dps.texas.gov/driverlicense/electionid.htm
    - google234123 6y ago
      How can you live in this society without some proof of identity?
      - slg 6y ago
        It is very easy in the US, especially in either very urban or very rural communities. If you don't drive on public roads and are already established in life with a job or bank account, you probably don't actually need an ID for much in your day to day life. Even activities that we normally think of as requiring an ID like traveling on a plane are possible without an ID if you are willing to jump through some hoops.
    - metiscus 6y ago
      Yes. In order to avail onesself of the benefits of citizenship one must establish that they are in fact a citizen.
      - slg 6y ago
        Why do you need to validate citizenship when issuing a voter ID if citizenship was already validated when registering to vote? That seems like a completely redundant requirement that is only put in place to make it slightly more difficult to acquire said ID.
9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
Then it's even better than in Europe, you usually pay a small tax to get documents. Then what is this fuzz about having a proper documents to vote about? Republicans being suspicious about the fraud has merit.
- slg 6y ago
  Requiring any tax in order to allow someone to vote is expressly illegal in the US as it used to be abused as a form of voter suppression. From our Constitution (24th Amendment, Section 1)[1]: >The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fourth_Amendment_to_the...
  - 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
    Well you need a home too to vote? Or how do they send you the envelope otherwise? Isn't that a tax as well. I could count tons on items, where's the line? Transport to polling station? Clothes to show up?
    - slg 6y ago
      You do not need a home or address to vote. You can setup your mail to be sent to a shelter, a social worker, or any number of other options. The US Postal Service has also been known to deliver to places that don't have official addresses so you might even be able to get something delivered to the "red tent behind the Walmart". You can also generally pick up whatever you need from the local elections office. Numerous services exist to provide free rides to polling places including some publicly owned transportation options. The right to vote does not excuse you committing crimes in order to vote and being naked is generally illegal is most of the US which would probably be what prevents you from voting without clothes.

caseysoftware 6y ago

I would love to test this theory. Imagine a state completely waives their fees for a State ID (usually only $10-20 anyway) in exchange for Voter ID laws. Do you think progressives could support it then? Would you?

hakfoo 6y ago
Even aside from the fee, there's the time involved, which is an indirect burden on many people. For whatever historical reason, we've entrusted the DMV with validating everyone's identity. The one which is open 9-4 M-F in the best conditions, and has been basically shuttered since Coronavirus. In some states, you can go to 'third-party offices' which are privately run and offer longer hours, but it's still a several hour endeavour (and then you're paying $30 extra for their services).
cmorgan31 6y ago
Sure, just don’t make the waiver some joke that requires as many hoops to jump through as possible to discourage voters. Voter fraud isn’t as significant an issue as electioneering but if an ID makes one side of the fence happy I’ll support it so long as it remains free and universally available.
slg 6y ago
I said free and easy to acquire. It wouldn't be enough for states to waive the fees if there are still hoops to jump through to acquire it. Getting an ID in many states requires spending hours at a DMV office that is probably only open during business hours and might be in the next county over from you. Voting should be an easy and seamless process. It shouldn't require hours of administrative prep work beforehand.
- caseysoftware 6y ago
  Getting a driver license the first time requires hours of sitting at the DMV. When I first moved to Texas, I had to do it twice in fact. It sounds like your criticism is of government (or at least DMV) complexity/ineffectiveness in general, not the ID laws specifically.