4 ms·

The US Census has already been used to round up Japanese-Americans into internment camps. Post-9/11, the Census has handed over the locations and countries of o

by lehi 6y ago

The US Census has already been used to round up Japanese-Americans into internment camps. Post-9/11, the Census has handed over the locations and countries of origin of Arab-Americans to DHS/CBP.

slg 6y ago
The point isn't that the US government has never done anything evil or will never do anything evil again. The point is that you aren't going to stop someone determined to commit evil by making it slightly more administratively difficult. If we fear that eventual evil, let's work to prevent it. Let's stop allowing this potential abuse to be the sole deciding factor against us doing good work today. It didn't stop us when we built the interstate highway system, which was largely built to facilitate military transport, so why should it stop us now? Also I'm not asking for a database including every possible detail about a person. I see no reason why something like race, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, or an number of other traits should be recorded. But a simple database with names, DOB, most recent address, a national id, etc would be extremely helpful.
- dane-pgp 6y ago
  > The point is that you aren't going to stop someone determined to commit evil by making it slightly more administratively difficult. "Both Mayor Karrer and Bishop Chrysostomos were quickly summoned to appear before the German Commandant, where they were ordered to immediately prepare the list of all the Jewish residents of Zakynthos. ... In a great display of courage and defiance to the powerful occupiers of Greece, the mayor and the bishop handed a simple piece of paper to the Nazi commander. On that scrap of paper, only two names were written: Mayor Loukas Kerrer and Bishop Chrysostomos." https://greece.greekreporter.com/2020/01/25/the-unimaginable-bravery-of-the-men-who-saved-the-greek-jews-of-zakynthos/ https://greece.greekreporter.com/2020/01/25/the-unimaginable...
  - slg 6y ago
    The paper with the two names on it makes for a great story, but it sounds more like that was their public proclamation of the community's actions. What really saved those people was their neighbors hiding them to the point that the article says they "disappeared". In that instance having some names on a piece of paper or in a database in meaningless. The important part is fighting the evil with direction action like this community did.
    - pessimizer 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust "In the book, published in 2001, Black outlined the way in which IBM's technology helped facilitate Nazi genocide through generation and tabulation of punch cards based upon national census data." I always find it strange how people consider the possibility of certain events far-fetched to the point of irrationality that have already happened.
      - slg 6y ago
        I feel like I am repeating myself now. The point is not that these tools can't be used for evil. The point is that banning these tools does not prevent evil. Would the Holocaust have happened without IBM's participation? Would the Holocaust have happened if punch cards were banned? Would the Holocaust have happened if the Nazis didn't have census data? The answer to those questions is an obvious yes. These logistical obstacles would have been nothing but a mild inconvenience for the Nazi death machine.

by lehi 6y ago

The US Census has already been used to round up Japanese-Americans into internment camps. Post-9/11, the Census has handed over the locations and countries of origin of Arab-Americans to DHS/CBP.

slg 6y ago

The point isn't that the US government has never done anything evil or will never do anything evil again. The point is that you aren't going to stop someone determined to commit evil by making it slightly more administratively difficult. If we fear that eventual evil, let's work to prevent it. Let's stop allowing this potential abuse to be the sole deciding factor against us doing good work today. It didn't stop us when we built the interstate highway system, which was largely built to facilitate military transport, so why should it stop us now? Also I'm not asking for a database including every possible detail about a person. I see no reason why something like race, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, or an number of other traits should be recorded. But a simple database with names, DOB, most recent address, a national id, etc would be extremely helpful.

dane-pgp 6y ago
> The point is that you aren't going to stop someone determined to commit evil by making it slightly more administratively difficult. "Both Mayor Karrer and Bishop Chrysostomos were quickly summoned to appear before the German Commandant, where they were ordered to immediately prepare the list of all the Jewish residents of Zakynthos. ... In a great display of courage and defiance to the powerful occupiers of Greece, the mayor and the bishop handed a simple piece of paper to the Nazi commander. On that scrap of paper, only two names were written: Mayor Loukas Kerrer and Bishop Chrysostomos." https://greece.greekreporter.com/2020/01/25/the-unimaginable-bravery-of-the-men-who-saved-the-greek-jews-of-zakynthos/ https://greece.greekreporter.com/2020/01/25/the-unimaginable...
- slg 6y ago
  The paper with the two names on it makes for a great story, but it sounds more like that was their public proclamation of the community's actions. What really saved those people was their neighbors hiding them to the point that the article says they "disappeared". In that instance having some names on a piece of paper or in a database in meaningless. The important part is fighting the evil with direction action like this community did.
  - pessimizer 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust "In the book, published in 2001, Black outlined the way in which IBM's technology helped facilitate Nazi genocide through generation and tabulation of punch cards based upon national census data." I always find it strange how people consider the possibility of certain events far-fetched to the point of irrationality that have already happened.
    - slg 6y ago
      I feel like I am repeating myself now. The point is not that these tools can't be used for evil. The point is that banning these tools does not prevent evil. Would the Holocaust have happened without IBM's participation? Would the Holocaust have happened if punch cards were banned? Would the Holocaust have happened if the Nazis didn't have census data? The answer to those questions is an obvious yes. These logistical obstacles would have been nothing but a mild inconvenience for the Nazi death machine.