6 ms·

Python. Since any argument can be called as a keyword arg, the names of arguments are a part of the API, and renaming them can break user code. I have written

Python. Since any argument can be called as a keyword arg, the names of arguments are a part of the API, and renaming them can break user code. I have written bugs because of this.

loopz 6y ago
For compiled languages, it's neat to get compiler error instead of a nasty bug.
- Karliss 6y ago
  No compiler in Python. In combination with features like varargs, kwargs, unpacking dictionary into args, argument forwarding Python allows you to turn this into bugs.
  - senkora 6y ago
    Well, Python does get compiled to bytecode before it is run. And the compiler does tell you about some errors, like inconsistent indentation, even if that code is never executed.
- kortilla 6y ago
  In python without explicit analysis using something like pylint you won’t find out until function call time.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- quietbritishjim 6y ago
  A bug is a problem that affects your users. If you're a library author then your users are developers of applications (and higher-level libraries), so an unintentional breaking change to your API is definitely a bug.
dotancohen 6y ago
To be fair, "Python" is the answer to at least three other questions in the form of "In what language is ___ ever significant?" That said, I love Python and it's the language that I taught to my daughters first.
- xmprt 6y ago
  I wonder if Python should still be the go to language for teaching programming. It's pretty simple and reads like English but I feel like if you can get over a few syntax bumps, Go is a lot easier to understand and is much more straightforward compared to Python which has a lot of quirks (like why can't spaces/tabs be mixed if they look the same on the editor, why are there so many different ways to write a loop)... The only thing that might trip up beginners in Go is error handling but if they haven't learned any other way of doing it before then they might just accept it for what it is.
  - brandmeyer 6y ago
    Maybe as introduction, sure. But IMO Python does not encourage exploratory reasoning about how programs work. For example, the question "how does `x.y()` get evaluated?" has a very complex answer. `x += y` is even more complex.
    - Voliokis 6y ago
      What languages would you recommend for exploratory reasoning?
      - userbinator 6y ago
        I would choose Asm or perhaps even raw machine code.
      - xmprt 6y ago
        C++11 is probably as close as you can get to something that's simple enough and widely used but also supports diving into how computers work because you will eventually have to manage your own memory (although I'm not sure if memory management is an important skill for someone just starting to learn how to code). For a real deep understanding, you'd probably have to jump into the actual computer microchip architecture to learn how computers store memory and do things like pipelining, branch prediction, and caching. Then a primer on Operating Systems (I like "Three Easy Pieces") should fill in the gaps.
wwright 6y ago
Modern Python lets you explicitly opt out of this by putting “/“ in your argument list iirc correctly: def only_positional(a, b, /): Pass Similarly, you can prevent keyword args from being called as positional (which has the inverse problem of breaking client code by changing the order of keyword arguments): def only_keyword(*, foo, bar): pass
- dralley 6y ago
  The first feature pretty much only exists to make interop with C apis less error prone. It's not really something that should be used in idiomatic Python
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > The first feature pretty much only exists to make interop with C apis less error prone. It makes it so that certain built-ins and native APIs can be properly typed, sure, but positional/keyword interchangeability is arguably a violation of the Zen, too.
  - wwright 6y ago
    I disagree for the exact reason the thread here started: it’s part of your public API. If you don’t want keyword arguments in your public API contract, you absolutely should omit them from the contract.

Python. Since any argument can be called as a keyword arg, the names of arguments are a part of the API, and renaming them can break user code. I have written bugs because of this.

loopz 6y ago

For compiled languages, it's neat to get compiler error instead of a nasty bug.

Karliss 6y ago
No compiler in Python. In combination with features like varargs, kwargs, unpacking dictionary into args, argument forwarding Python allows you to turn this into bugs.
- senkora 6y ago
  Well, Python does get compiled to bytecode before it is run. And the compiler does tell you about some errors, like inconsistent indentation, even if that code is never executed.
kortilla 6y ago
In python without explicit analysis using something like pylint you won’t find out until function call time.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
quietbritishjim 6y ago
A bug is a problem that affects your users. If you're a library author then your users are developers of applications (and higher-level libraries), so an unintentional breaking change to your API is definitely a bug.

dotancohen 6y ago

To be fair, "Python" is the answer to at least three other questions in the form of "In what language is ___ ever significant?" That said, I love Python and it's the language that I taught to my daughters first.

xmprt 6y ago
I wonder if Python should still be the go to language for teaching programming. It's pretty simple and reads like English but I feel like if you can get over a few syntax bumps, Go is a lot easier to understand and is much more straightforward compared to Python which has a lot of quirks (like why can't spaces/tabs be mixed if they look the same on the editor, why are there so many different ways to write a loop)... The only thing that might trip up beginners in Go is error handling but if they haven't learned any other way of doing it before then they might just accept it for what it is.
- brandmeyer 6y ago
  Maybe as introduction, sure. But IMO Python does not encourage exploratory reasoning about how programs work. For example, the question "how does `x.y()` get evaluated?" has a very complex answer. `x += y` is even more complex.
  - Voliokis 6y ago
    What languages would you recommend for exploratory reasoning?
    - userbinator 6y ago
      I would choose Asm or perhaps even raw machine code.
    - xmprt 6y ago
      C++11 is probably as close as you can get to something that's simple enough and widely used but also supports diving into how computers work because you will eventually have to manage your own memory (although I'm not sure if memory management is an important skill for someone just starting to learn how to code). For a real deep understanding, you'd probably have to jump into the actual computer microchip architecture to learn how computers store memory and do things like pipelining, branch prediction, and caching. Then a primer on Operating Systems (I like "Three Easy Pieces") should fill in the gaps.

wwright 6y ago

Modern Python lets you explicitly opt out of this by putting “/“ in your argument list iirc correctly: def only_positional(a, b, /): Pass Similarly, you can prevent keyword args from being called as positional (which has the inverse problem of breaking client code by changing the order of keyword arguments): def only_keyword(*, foo, bar): pass

dralley 6y ago
The first feature pretty much only exists to make interop with C apis less error prone. It's not really something that should be used in idiomatic Python
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > The first feature pretty much only exists to make interop with C apis less error prone. It makes it so that certain built-ins and native APIs can be properly typed, sure, but positional/keyword interchangeability is arguably a violation of the Zen, too.
- wwright 6y ago
  I disagree for the exact reason the thread here started: it’s part of your public API. If you don’t want keyword arguments in your public API contract, you absolutely should omit them from the contract.