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You may have been downvoted for suggesting that getting a downvote means someone is trying to take away your freedom of speech. Which is obviously baloney. One

You may have been downvoted for suggesting that getting a downvote means someone is trying to take away your freedom of speech. Which is obviously baloney. One problem I see with your actual message is that the narrative being consistently pushed is that this is really just some moral duty the US is carrying out. "Ban such a device from a dictatorship so that the free countries have a chance". Which, if you lived long enough, you must have heard being repeated ad-nauseam every time some country was in need of some "democracy". Hindsight shows us they were all left out worse than they were. But worse than that, even if the problem was unfolding for decades, every time there was such an intervention it just so happened that it was just at the right time when the US needed it. And it just so happened that it benefited the US and US companies the most. Or exclusively. Like leaving the US again holding a monopoly on data gathering in the world, or excluding the main competitor in mobile and 5G from the US and even world markets. So it's easy to wonder and ask the question: if it's a moral duty why wait so long? Was it for a cheaper iPhone? Why invoke reasons that were there for so long exactly when China starts to become a concrete threat on the super-power stage? Look at it from another perspective. In light of the NSA revelations, and knowing the vast quantities of data Facebook or Google are collecting and sharing with the US government (for some morally dubious outcomes for the society) which are highly incompatible with the European values and ideals of rights and freedom, would you support an initiative where all these big-tech companies would have their EU operations be moved entirely under a European company?

jonathannat 6y ago
> downvote means someone is trying to take away your freedom of speech Nope, that's not what I said > Hindsight shows us they were all left out worse than they were. Taiwan, South Korea, and a few eastern european countries would vehemontly disagree with you > US government which is highly incompatible with the European values and ideals of rights and freedom I don't know where you're getting this. US shares the same democratic ideals as most of the countries in Europe. Which is why there's now a ton of pushbacks against China in Europe. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-07/from-france-to-sweden-china-is-losing-europe https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-07/from-f... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/17/business/european-union-china-deals.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/17/business/european-union-c... Germany (sans Merkel): https://www.politico.eu/article/why-post-merkel-germany-will-change-its-tune-on-china/ https://www.politico.eu/article/why-post-merkel-germany-will... France: https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/France-places-de-facto-5G-ban-on-Huawei-gear-by-2028 https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/France-pl... UK: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/world/europe/mike-pompeo-boris-johnson-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/world/europe/mike-pompeo-... Czech: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-czech/czech-prime-minister-says-chinas-ambassador-should-be-replaced-idUSKBN20W1EH https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-czech/czech-prime-m... Sweden: https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Sweden-China-ties-grow-ever-icier-over-Hong-Kong-and-coronavirus https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Swe...
- buran77 6y ago
  > Nope, that's not what I said That's exactly what you said in your now deleted (flagged?) comment. There's no country in the world who benefited in any other way than as a side effect of US benefiting. It was never done for them but rather so the US can strengthen geo-political influence or economic interests in the area. And don't get me wrong, I totally understand and respect that. What I don't agree with or understand is why people let themselves be lied to with "moral duty" fairy tales when they should just own it. Being manipulated into believing a fairy tale seems worse than owning your actions. You haven't addressed the mother of all coincidences that all these interventions happened after the issue was unfolding for a long time and only when the US (not the other countries) needed them most. Or whether you'd agree for the EU to treat any "threat to national security" the same way as the US did now. > I don't know where you're getting this. You refuse to understand what I said since it doesn't support your narrative. The world is not binary and if I don't agree with you it doesn't mean I agree with your "enemy". I said EU principles are incompatible with US practices, as I'm sure you agree. Your answer deflected to "EU vs. China". What China is doing is certainly worse. And your argument is that this makes the US "good". I think it's just the lesser evil. I'll address your deflection too, the EU is nowhere near a strong enough position to go against the US. The US has a history of strongarming allies to the point of threatning them with sanctions when it came to not agreeing with the US [0][1][2]. The common denominator always seems to be "US pressure" - threats. Takes an axe to all of your arguments of "for the good of others" and "ton of pushbacks". All you're seeing is US interests being forcefully pushed through others. And yet the EU, home of the biggest 5G competitors, still hesitates to ban Huawei. There's an old joke (not sure from which country) who's punchline was that not everyone who gets you out of shit is a friend. [0] https://www.dw.com/en/germany-split-on-iran-soleimani-strategy-ostpolitik/a-51905330 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-split-on-iran-soleimani-strate... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jul/13/europe-divided-on-huawei-as-us-pressure-to-drop-company-grows https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jul/13/europe-di... [3] https://www.dw.com/en/nord-stream-2-us-senators-threaten-german-port-with-crushing-sanctions/a-54473119 https://www.dw.com/en/nord-stream-2-us-senators-threaten-ger...
bitcurious 6y ago
> it benefited the US and US companies the most. Or exclusively...excluding the main competitor in 5G from the US market. If I believe what I read on HN, the alternatives to Huawei are all European.
- buran77 6y ago
  That's correct, Nokia and Ericsson are the main contenders. But Huawei or ZTE losing a huge chunk of the 5G and networking market is still a major blow for China, so a win for the US. And they were also eliminated as competition for Apple in the US mobile market.

jonathannat 6y ago

> downvote means someone is trying to take away your freedom of speech Nope, that's not what I said > Hindsight shows us they were all left out worse than they were. Taiwan, South Korea, and a few eastern european countries would vehemontly disagree with you > US government which is highly incompatible with the European values and ideals of rights and freedom I don't know where you're getting this. US shares the same democratic ideals as most of the countries in Europe. Which is why there's now a ton of pushbacks against China in Europe. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-07/from-france-to-sweden-china-is-losing-europe https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-05-07/from-f... https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/17/business/european-union-china-deals.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/17/business/european-union-c... Germany (sans Merkel): https://www.politico.eu/article/why-post-merkel-germany-will-change-its-tune-on-china/ https://www.politico.eu/article/why-post-merkel-germany-will... France: https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/France-places-de-facto-5G-ban-on-Huawei-gear-by-2028 https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/France-pl... UK: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/world/europe/mike-pompeo-boris-johnson-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/21/world/europe/mike-pompeo-... Czech: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-czech/czech-prime-minister-says-chinas-ambassador-should-be-replaced-idUSKBN20W1EH https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-czech/czech-prime-m... Sweden: https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Sweden-China-ties-grow-ever-icier-over-Hong-Kong-and-coronavirus https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Swe...

buran77 6y ago
> Nope, that's not what I said That's exactly what you said in your now deleted (flagged?) comment. There's no country in the world who benefited in any other way than as a side effect of US benefiting. It was never done for them but rather so the US can strengthen geo-political influence or economic interests in the area. And don't get me wrong, I totally understand and respect that. What I don't agree with or understand is why people let themselves be lied to with "moral duty" fairy tales when they should just own it. Being manipulated into believing a fairy tale seems worse than owning your actions. You haven't addressed the mother of all coincidences that all these interventions happened after the issue was unfolding for a long time and only when the US (not the other countries) needed them most. Or whether you'd agree for the EU to treat any "threat to national security" the same way as the US did now. > I don't know where you're getting this. You refuse to understand what I said since it doesn't support your narrative. The world is not binary and if I don't agree with you it doesn't mean I agree with your "enemy". I said EU principles are incompatible with US practices, as I'm sure you agree. Your answer deflected to "EU vs. China". What China is doing is certainly worse. And your argument is that this makes the US "good". I think it's just the lesser evil. I'll address your deflection too, the EU is nowhere near a strong enough position to go against the US. The US has a history of strongarming allies to the point of threatning them with sanctions when it came to not agreeing with the US [0][1][2]. The common denominator always seems to be "US pressure" - threats. Takes an axe to all of your arguments of "for the good of others" and "ton of pushbacks". All you're seeing is US interests being forcefully pushed through others. And yet the EU, home of the biggest 5G competitors, still hesitates to ban Huawei. There's an old joke (not sure from which country) who's punchline was that not everyone who gets you out of shit is a friend. [0] https://www.dw.com/en/germany-split-on-iran-soleimani-strategy-ostpolitik/a-51905330 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-split-on-iran-soleimani-strate... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jul/13/europe-divided-on-huawei-as-us-pressure-to-drop-company-grows https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jul/13/europe-di... [3] https://www.dw.com/en/nord-stream-2-us-senators-threaten-german-port-with-crushing-sanctions/a-54473119 https://www.dw.com/en/nord-stream-2-us-senators-threaten-ger...

bitcurious 6y ago

> it benefited the US and US companies the most. Or exclusively...excluding the main competitor in 5G from the US market. If I believe what I read on HN, the alternatives to Huawei are all European.

buran77 6y ago
That's correct, Nokia and Ericsson are the main contenders. But Huawei or ZTE losing a huge chunk of the 5G and networking market is still a major blow for China, so a win for the US. And they were also eliminated as competition for Apple in the US mobile market.