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> The feeling of attachment is one that programmers can cultivate when it suits them; it is not inevitable. Consider, for example, how willingly the same progra

by crocko 6y ago

> The feeling of attachment is one that programmers can cultivate when it suits them; it is not inevitable. Consider, for example, how willingly the same programmers usually sign over all rights to a large corporation for a salary; the emotional attachment mysteriously vanishes. It is because they are getting paid they willingly hand over the rights. Also a lot of full time employees do take personal ownership of their code maybe not in a legal sense but they feel it is their responsibility. This is why I cannot stand Stallman. There are plenty of good arguments for open source software. However completely ignoring the fact that when you are a full time employee you are promised pay and some benefits by the employer is as far as I am concerned completely disingenuous. His whole premise is faulty.

cogburnd02 6y ago
Well, compare/contrast the emotional attachment a programmer has for code with the emotional attachment a parent has for their child. No amount of money would make the emotional attachment of a parent to their child go away; I think this is his point.
- crocko 6y ago
  Yes let’s compare looking after your a new life in the world with source code like they are they in anyway equivalent. This is exactly my problem with characters like Stallman and why people should actually read the more robust arguments against GNU/Free software movements sad the more robust arguments gives you a reality check against a lot of Stallman’s nonsense.
  - cycloptic 6y ago
    It's not equivalent, that was the point. Any responsibility one might feel towards their employer's code goes away immediately when they find a new job somewhere else for better pay. If you follow that, this whole line of reasoning really doesn't have anything to do with FOSS versus proprietary. You can observe the same effects happening at tons of Linux companies too, i.e. employees who don't care one way or another about the OS or the license and are just there to put in their time and collect a paycheck.
    - crocko 6y ago
      You are using the his language. The language is that many developers take ownership of a project while they are working for an employer. The fact that people make these comparisons between children and source is the problem and what you are doing is framing it the way Stallman wants to frame it. This leads you to his conclusions. If you actually take some time to look as some of his assertions you can see they are far more nuanced that he would like you to think. It is disingenuous of him to frame it like that in the first place, he isn't stupid and therefore I cannot accept it is an oversight. I would rather Software development was more seen akin to be a plumber or a carpenter and that is exactly how I try to work. People have to get over the fact that programming is a profession, it has a market and things need to be paid for. The whole activism for free software is completely missing the point as it focuses on source code and not specifications. If there is an open spec then anyone can make a opensource or proprietary implementation of that spec. The "freedom" of that software is irrelevant because it adheres to the specification. The current model for monetising free and open software software has lead to making money via support contracts, which leads to things like SaaS where you are perpetually renting something rather than actually owning a license. When you are perpetually renting from a large company you are then tied into what they want to do and you are probably in a worse situation than using a proprietary product especially if your data is held up in that service (that why Microsoft and Amazon want you to use their proprietary NoSQL infrastructure and price it so cheaply compared to something like Postgres of SQL Server). This is such a difficult thing to get across I end up rambling on tangents because there any many many things wrong as the presuppositions are just incorrect or aren't as concrete as many assert.
      - cycloptic 6y ago
        >The language is that many developers take ownership of a project while they are working for an employer. For most employees this seems to be factually untrue unless they have significant stock ownership in the company. And even with that, it's still common for projects to be regularly scrapped, postponed, sold off, redesigned from scratch, transferred to different departments, you get the picture. It's just business. I have no comment on the rest of your post, I request that you please not make assumptions about what conclusions I've drawn. My only point is that that emotional argument makes no sense, it makes even less sense now in 2020 than it did when the article was written.

by crocko 6y ago

cogburnd02 6y ago

Well, compare/contrast the emotional attachment a programmer has for code with the emotional attachment a parent has for their child. No amount of money would make the emotional attachment of a parent to their child go away; I think this is his point.

crocko 6y ago
Yes let’s compare looking after your a new life in the world with source code like they are they in anyway equivalent. This is exactly my problem with characters like Stallman and why people should actually read the more robust arguments against GNU/Free software movements sad the more robust arguments gives you a reality check against a lot of Stallman’s nonsense.
- cycloptic 6y ago
  It's not equivalent, that was the point. Any responsibility one might feel towards their employer's code goes away immediately when they find a new job somewhere else for better pay. If you follow that, this whole line of reasoning really doesn't have anything to do with FOSS versus proprietary. You can observe the same effects happening at tons of Linux companies too, i.e. employees who don't care one way or another about the OS or the license and are just there to put in their time and collect a paycheck.
  - crocko 6y ago
    You are using the his language. The language is that many developers take ownership of a project while they are working for an employer. The fact that people make these comparisons between children and source is the problem and what you are doing is framing it the way Stallman wants to frame it. This leads you to his conclusions. If you actually take some time to look as some of his assertions you can see they are far more nuanced that he would like you to think. It is disingenuous of him to frame it like that in the first place, he isn't stupid and therefore I cannot accept it is an oversight. I would rather Software development was more seen akin to be a plumber or a carpenter and that is exactly how I try to work. People have to get over the fact that programming is a profession, it has a market and things need to be paid for. The whole activism for free software is completely missing the point as it focuses on source code and not specifications. If there is an open spec then anyone can make a opensource or proprietary implementation of that spec. The "freedom" of that software is irrelevant because it adheres to the specification. The current model for monetising free and open software software has lead to making money via support contracts, which leads to things like SaaS where you are perpetually renting something rather than actually owning a license. When you are perpetually renting from a large company you are then tied into what they want to do and you are probably in a worse situation than using a proprietary product especially if your data is held up in that service (that why Microsoft and Amazon want you to use their proprietary NoSQL infrastructure and price it so cheaply compared to something like Postgres of SQL Server). This is such a difficult thing to get across I end up rambling on tangents because there any many many things wrong as the presuppositions are just incorrect or aren't as concrete as many assert.
    - cycloptic 6y ago
      >The language is that many developers take ownership of a project while they are working for an employer. For most employees this seems to be factually untrue unless they have significant stock ownership in the company. And even with that, it's still common for projects to be regularly scrapped, postponed, sold off, redesigned from scratch, transferred to different departments, you get the picture. It's just business. I have no comment on the rest of your post, I request that you please not make assumptions about what conclusions I've drawn. My only point is that that emotional argument makes no sense, it makes even less sense now in 2020 than it did when the article was written.