5 ms·

I don’t think you have read the National Security Law of the United States, which is broader and stricter than China... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jdp2Jv

I don’t think you have read the National Security Law of the United States, which is broader and stricter than China... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jdp2JviTDA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jdp2JviTDA

ailun 6y ago
Guess what? I don’t agree with many of the recent infringements on constitutional rights in the US either. I can criticize my country because I’m not a blind nationalist. And the US doing something wrong doesn’t excuse what China is doing to a formerly free society. Further, it’s impossible for anything to be more vague than the HK national security law - there must be some level of maximum vagueness and China has achieved it with this law. Edit: I see you’ve linked Nathan Rich - what a horrible source. Why don’t you link the actual law you’re talking about?
- chloerei 6y ago
  Reply to your last point first, you are right, I should quote easy-to-read material. I quote Nathan Rich because I first saw this law in his video. I extracted the link so that others can read it: > 18 U.S. Code § 2385.Advocating overthrow of Government https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385 In fact, China has learned a lot from the United States. Before the Hong Kong National Security Law was released, some people joked that it would be better to copy the laws of the United States directly, so that many disputes can be avoided. I think no one wants his rights to be restricted until his right to life is threatened. If a group of people say they will destroy everything until the government compromises, then the streets are destroyed, the unemployment rate rises, and relatives hate each other. Someone will accept that all this must be legally bound.
  - ailun 6y ago
    That's great, you linked something specific to talk about. Interestingly, the actual application of that law demonstrates how rights are protected in the US. You may know that Chairman Xi thinks there should never be an independent judiciary in China. So the vague national security law there ends up as nothing but a tool of the state to arrest those it doesn't like. In the US, the Supreme Court balances that law against our constitutional rights, rendering it almost unenforceable. In fact, the way that law is applied is very specific, not vague at all. Please read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates_v._United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates_v._United_States Nathan Rich and people like him may be fun for you to watch because they confirm your worldview and reinforce your biases, but I suggest you read some real legal scholars if you're interested in actually educating yourself. Edit: Also, getting back to the origin of this thread, nothing in US law prohibits what Jimmy Lai did. And nothing prohibited it when he did it in Hong Kong. Even besides how disgusting this law is, applying it retroactively is truly appalling.
    - chloerei 6y ago
      We live in different legal systems. Sometimes I also have a lot of questions about the laws of the United States, because Trump has signed a lot of executive orders to ban Huawei and TikTok, without going through the court or Congress, and they are effective. Back to Hong Kong, the Hong Kong National Security Law is not retroactive: > Article 39 This Law shall apply to acts committed after its entry into force for the purpose of conviction and imposition of punishment. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AHong_Kong_National_Security_Law_(English_Translation).pdf/17 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AHong_Kong_National_Sec... The police found evidence that he violated the law after the National Security Act was released, so they arrested him. I wait for the Hong Kong police to release more information. YouTuber is just one of my information channels, and I also go to the websites or forums of protesters.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Trump has signed a lot of executive orders to ban Huawei and TikTok, without going through the court or Congress, and they are effective. The President has emergency powers in existing law to regulate foreign trade in this general way, for the purpose of rapidly responding to action by hostile foreign nations executed through trade including through notionally private firms.
      - ailun 6y ago
        Well, I live in China, so technically we don't. You can say we were born under different legal systems. In China, law is often a tool to punish those the state doesn't like. Trump hasn't banned TikTok yet, and the powers he is trying to use for that were given to him by Congress. It hasn't gone through courts yet, though, so you need to read more about it before making claims. This seems to be a pattern with you. They claim it is not retroactive - but I highly doubt it. And you yourself said he was being punished for things that happened before it was in place.
- UIZealot 6y ago
  > I can criticize my country because I’m not a blind nationalist. Are you sure you aren't? Let's see those comments criticizing your country. > And the US doing something wrong doesn’t excuse what China is doing to a formerly free society. Why doesn't it, when the US is the "leader of the free world", as you like to call yourselves? Seems to me you are holding China to a higher standard than the US. Why is that?
  - ailun 6y ago
    I’m very sure. Do you actually have an issue with the substance of what I said? Obviously I’m not going to link you to all my online accounts to prove to you whether I’ve sufficiently criticized the US. I’m going to very briefly reply to your second point, because I don’t think you’re discussing in good faith. Whether or not the US does something wrong is irrelevant to the rightness or wrongness of China’s actions, because I don’t think the US is some sort of Platonic ideal of a perfect state. My thought process is not: US good, China different, therefore bad.
    - UIZealot 6y ago
      I'm glad you are so sure. Maybe the new national security law of HK is less than the Platonic ideal of a perfect law. Is it also fair to say that you think the National Security Law of the US is bad too? Since chloerei stated that it "is broader and stricter than China" and you didn't refute it. Can you elaborate on that? Since it's your own country and you should be much better informed to comment on that than on the HK law.
      - ailun 6y ago
        There is no law named "National Security Law" in the United States, he was just using it as a poor deflection, as you know. Once he linked a specific law, I elaborated. You can check it out if you actually care.
        UIZealot 6y ago
        I checked it, and the case you linked, out. So there is a similar law in the US, even though it's not named "National Security Law". And you can be prosecuted under that law. How different is it really, from the situation in HK and the national security law?

ailun 6y ago

Guess what? I don’t agree with many of the recent infringements on constitutional rights in the US either. I can criticize my country because I’m not a blind nationalist. And the US doing something wrong doesn’t excuse what China is doing to a formerly free society. Further, it’s impossible for anything to be more vague than the HK national security law - there must be some level of maximum vagueness and China has achieved it with this law. Edit: I see you’ve linked Nathan Rich - what a horrible source. Why don’t you link the actual law you’re talking about?

chloerei 6y ago
Reply to your last point first, you are right, I should quote easy-to-read material. I quote Nathan Rich because I first saw this law in his video. I extracted the link so that others can read it: > 18 U.S. Code § 2385.Advocating overthrow of Government https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2385 In fact, China has learned a lot from the United States. Before the Hong Kong National Security Law was released, some people joked that it would be better to copy the laws of the United States directly, so that many disputes can be avoided. I think no one wants his rights to be restricted until his right to life is threatened. If a group of people say they will destroy everything until the government compromises, then the streets are destroyed, the unemployment rate rises, and relatives hate each other. Someone will accept that all this must be legally bound.
- ailun 6y ago
  That's great, you linked something specific to talk about. Interestingly, the actual application of that law demonstrates how rights are protected in the US. You may know that Chairman Xi thinks there should never be an independent judiciary in China. So the vague national security law there ends up as nothing but a tool of the state to arrest those it doesn't like. In the US, the Supreme Court balances that law against our constitutional rights, rendering it almost unenforceable. In fact, the way that law is applied is very specific, not vague at all. Please read: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates_v._United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yates_v._United_States Nathan Rich and people like him may be fun for you to watch because they confirm your worldview and reinforce your biases, but I suggest you read some real legal scholars if you're interested in actually educating yourself. Edit: Also, getting back to the origin of this thread, nothing in US law prohibits what Jimmy Lai did. And nothing prohibited it when he did it in Hong Kong. Even besides how disgusting this law is, applying it retroactively is truly appalling.
  - chloerei 6y ago
    We live in different legal systems. Sometimes I also have a lot of questions about the laws of the United States, because Trump has signed a lot of executive orders to ban Huawei and TikTok, without going through the court or Congress, and they are effective. Back to Hong Kong, the Hong Kong National Security Law is not retroactive: > Article 39 This Law shall apply to acts committed after its entry into force for the purpose of conviction and imposition of punishment. https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AHong_Kong_National_Security_Law_(English_Translation).pdf/17 https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page%3AHong_Kong_National_Sec... The police found evidence that he violated the law after the National Security Act was released, so they arrested him. I wait for the Hong Kong police to release more information. YouTuber is just one of my information channels, and I also go to the websites or forums of protesters.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Trump has signed a lot of executive orders to ban Huawei and TikTok, without going through the court or Congress, and they are effective. The President has emergency powers in existing law to regulate foreign trade in this general way, for the purpose of rapidly responding to action by hostile foreign nations executed through trade including through notionally private firms.
    - ailun 6y ago
      Well, I live in China, so technically we don't. You can say we were born under different legal systems. In China, law is often a tool to punish those the state doesn't like. Trump hasn't banned TikTok yet, and the powers he is trying to use for that were given to him by Congress. It hasn't gone through courts yet, though, so you need to read more about it before making claims. This seems to be a pattern with you. They claim it is not retroactive - but I highly doubt it. And you yourself said he was being punished for things that happened before it was in place.
UIZealot 6y ago
> I can criticize my country because I’m not a blind nationalist. Are you sure you aren't? Let's see those comments criticizing your country. > And the US doing something wrong doesn’t excuse what China is doing to a formerly free society. Why doesn't it, when the US is the "leader of the free world", as you like to call yourselves? Seems to me you are holding China to a higher standard than the US. Why is that?
- ailun 6y ago
  I’m very sure. Do you actually have an issue with the substance of what I said? Obviously I’m not going to link you to all my online accounts to prove to you whether I’ve sufficiently criticized the US. I’m going to very briefly reply to your second point, because I don’t think you’re discussing in good faith. Whether or not the US does something wrong is irrelevant to the rightness or wrongness of China’s actions, because I don’t think the US is some sort of Platonic ideal of a perfect state. My thought process is not: US good, China different, therefore bad.
  - UIZealot 6y ago
    I'm glad you are so sure. Maybe the new national security law of HK is less than the Platonic ideal of a perfect law. Is it also fair to say that you think the National Security Law of the US is bad too? Since chloerei stated that it "is broader and stricter than China" and you didn't refute it. Can you elaborate on that? Since it's your own country and you should be much better informed to comment on that than on the HK law.
    - ailun 6y ago
      There is no law named "National Security Law" in the United States, he was just using it as a poor deflection, as you know. Once he linked a specific law, I elaborated. You can check it out if you actually care.
      - UIZealot 6y ago
        I checked it, and the case you linked, out. So there is a similar law in the US, even though it's not named "National Security Law". And you can be prosecuted under that law. How different is it really, from the situation in HK and the national security law?