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I don't disagree that the values of the United States have always been an aspiration rather than actual reality. Thomas Jefferson wrote that "All men are creat
by someperson 6y ago
I don't disagree that the values of the United States have always been an aspiration rather than actual reality.
Thomas Jefferson wrote that "All men are created equal" in 1776 as part of the United States' founding principles, but it took until 1865 for slavery to even be abolished in the United States. He even owned slaves himself and famously bore 6 children with his slave, Sally Hemings. As recently as 155 years ago in the United States, you could own people as property, and 70 years ago black people couldn't drink out of the same drinking fountain as white people.
The US has always been a work in progress, and it's better to have some kind of aspirational set of values (like presumption of innocence and equality) that we should try and make sure our societies are living up to.
- Ma8ee 6y agoOf course you should have aspirations! But many people seems to think that the US is this shining light of enlightenment and democracy in the world that, just a little bit, at a few occasions, forgotten they way. But that is just not true. From slavery, Jim Crow, internment camps, McCarthy, Vietnam, killing of “enemy combatants”, etc. You have never been even close to the way.
- someperson 6y agoJust to clarify, I am not American.
- barrenko 6y agoTrust me, to many non-Americans US remains the sole idea of a free country, whatever happened over there so far.
- Ma8ee 6y agoI can think of several west-European countries that are better models (even though none are completely without faults).
- pageandrew 6y agoEconomic prosperity does not necessarily equal freedom.
- anonAndOn 6y agoFree to be born king/queen of the monarchy?[0] Free to be born titled nobility? [0, again] [0]England, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, others?
- Ma8ee 6y agoWho has absolutely no significant power, or privileges. I take the Swedish Royal family over the Murdochs, Busches, Trumps or Clintons any day. I hope you aren’t so naive that you think that the US are free from privileges by birth.
- anonAndOn 6y agoThe thing about the US is, it usually takes a generation or two to make it to the top (Kennedy, Trump) but some ambitious upstarts can do it without generational wealth (Clinton, Obama). Then, the kids (mostly) and grandkids (definitely) fade into obscurity. When was the last time you saw an old-world royal lineage fade into obscurity? (France, 1789?) So some great-great-great(^n) descendent of some conquerer of yesteryear has a guaranteed place at the table in directing the modern European nation because why, exactly?
- rorykoehler 6y agoThey’re just misinformed. Too much Hollywood propaganda not enough reality.
- mathw 6y agoThere are countries freer in practice if not in stated principals. But there are definitely a load of countries which make America look great, and if that's not a sign of how much progress humanity has still to make I don't know what is.
- somesortofsystm 6y agoMany non-Americans are kept in the dark regarding America's involvement with modern day genocide - for example, its support of 20 million people being starved to death RIGHT NOW in Yemen. So, its not necessarily the case that just because everyone believes something, it is true...
- starfallg 6y agoThe counterpoint to that is the fact we know about these issues and can talk about them freely. In a country on the opposite side of the spectrum, doing that lands you in secret jail.
- Ma8ee 6y agoIs really your best excuse that there are countries that are worse?
- starfallg 6y agoNo, I'm just pointing out that there is a real difference between places where there is a free press and places where there is not and the state is empowered to clamp down on ideas it doesn't like.
- Ma8ee 6y agoThat sounds the same to me. Of course there are worse places than the US. You aren’t Saudi Arabia, Russia or China, Belarus or even Turkey. But you aren’t even in the top ten in regards to freedom, democracy, equality, social mobility, health, etc. I’d much rather live in any of the Nordic countries, Germany, the Netherlands, France, ...
- starfallg 6y agoWell, funnily enough, I'm not in the US either.
- somesortofsystm 6y agoahem Do you remember who Julian Assange is? ahem
- starfallg 6y agoThe fact that you can talk about Julian Assange openly is the point. It doesn't matter what he did was lawful or not, or whether the law itself is right or wrong. In the end, he decided to hole himself up in a foreign embassy in London to avoid extradition to Sweden on some sex charges.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- unishark 6y ago> I don't disagree that the values of the United States have always been an aspiration rather than actual reality. The US is a constitutional democracy that was created in a world of kingdoms. It has the oldest constitution, a code of laws that grants its citizens rights which the government is prohibited from violating. And while the UK may be considered as an (perhaps only) older running democracy, it had a king, where the US replaced this role with the invention of a popularly-elected president. Sure it's not so special anymore, since everyone has democracy and presidents these days. But it most certainly was not always the case, especially back when the US was stumbling at times living up to its ideals. I am old enough to remember a world where the most common form of govt was still a dictatorship, not democracy, and there were despicable authoritarian regimes on almost every continent. US history is certainly not all positive, but the positives are there. A constitution and popular elections are not ideals, they are results. People who have positive opinions of this country throughout history were not as blind and irrational as these dismissive posts think.