3 ms·

Do you have any idea how the Soviet replicas were built?

virtue3 6y ago
https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/1858/how-were-western-computer-chips-reverse-engineered-in-ussr https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/1858/how-... There's some pretty famous "signs" that companies would put into their chips to show that it was blatently stolen. Also at some point it became a game: https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html What's fascinating is that you can basically run a country with little to no "actual" development of computer hardware, and just have an entire industry around "copying" to keep yourself up to date (or a few years behind at most). This is pretty evident with China of the past few years in military tech, and now they are starting to leap frog (See engine issues with their new fighter, and how they are almost there but not quite. Russia is unwilling to sell them newer engines for fear of copying essentially)
- a_concerned 6y ago
  Your comment got me interested and i compared die photos of both chips. Intel 8080A die photo: https://vintageteardown.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Intel8080A_10x-1.jpg https://vintageteardown.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Intel... 580BM80A die photo: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/1801BM1/vm80a/master/img/vm80a.jpg https://raw.githubusercontent.com/1801BM1/vm80a/master/img/v... I am not an expert in CPU design, so please correct me if i am wrong, but chips look rather different (at least Intel logo was removed on the 580BM80A die). Could it be that 580BM80A implements Intel's ISA, but actual CPU architecture is of their own? And could we call it a "copy"/"replica" if so? Like could we say that AMD CPUs are replicas of Intel CPUs, because they implement the same ISA?
  - kens 6y ago
    Those two chips are a lot more different than I'd expect. (Even taking into account the 90 degree rotation.) In particular, the ALU (upper-left in Intel photo) is fairly regular, while the ALU in the Russian photo (lower-left) looks like random logic. And the PLAs and instruction register seem entirely different between the two. I was skeptical at first, but I think it's possible that the Russian chip is a different implementation, and not just the same circuitry with the layout re-done for their process. It would require a closer look at the circuitry to determine for sure. For the first link, removing https will avoid the expired certificate warning: http://vintageteardown.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Intel8080A_10x-1.jpg http://vintageteardown.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Intel8...
flohofwoe 6y ago
Most likely the same way how enthusiasts are reverse-engineering those 8-bit CPUs today: decapping and tracing the transistors under a microscope. For the East German Z80 clone U880 there are some wild stories of how the secret service stole blueprints from Zilog, but the more believable version of the story is that some chips were smuggled over the border that had simply been bought in West German electronics stores. The East German Z80 version had definitely been reverse engineered - not simply cloned - because the U880 has a slightly different undocumented behaviour (for instance, the undocumented X and Y flags behave differently than on a real Z80), also apparently the Z80 has various 'trap transistors' which prevent that the mask can simply be cloned, those trap transistors had to be found and fixed (I guess this was the reason why the U880 project was delayed by a year or so). The much bigger problem than reverse engineering the chips was setting up manufacturing anyway. For East Germany this definitely happened with secret service support. The story goes that a small chip manufacturing company was set up in West Germany, which soon after declared bancrupty with the entire manufacturing equipment sold off to another company somewhere abroad. "Somehow" that equipment disappeared en route and showed up in East Germany a few months later.
- rasz 6y ago
  There was also a Polish clone, Afair developed as a PHD thesis by two students. Manufactured between 1982-1993. http://retrokolekcja.pl/MCY7880.php http://retrokolekcja.pl/MCY7880.php For comparison original 8080A: http://retrokolekcja.pl/zdjecia/MCY7880%20struktura%20ITE.jpg http://retrokolekcja.pl/zdjecia/MCY7880%20struktura%20ITE.jp... Polish MCY7880: http://retrokolekcja.pl/zdjecia/MCY7880%20struktura%20ITE.jpg http://retrokolekcja.pl/zdjecia/MCY7880%20struktura%20ITE.jp... Russian KR580BM80: http://retrokolekcja.pl/zdjecia/MCY7880_zsrr.jpg http://retrokolekcja.pl/zdjecia/MCY7880_zsrr.jpg And the absolutely amazing gem. In 1983 legendary science education TV program SONDA documented design and manufacturing of first batches in a humorous lets bake a cake fashion. Paper plotters, light pens, developing/rinsing dies by hand, electron miscroscope debugging, the whole nine yards! part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJGp7keIA_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJGp7keIA_o part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHl6m93Hay0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHl6m93Hay0 part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcOTwkT-PDU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcOTwkT-PDU Its amazing anything worked considering really spartan conditions.

https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/1858/how-were-western-computer-chips-reverse-engineered-in-ussr https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/1858/how-... There's some pretty famous "signs" that companies would put into their chips to show that it was blatently stolen. Also at some point it became a game: https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html What's fascinating is that you can basically run a country with little to no "actual" development of computer hardware, and just have an entire industry around "copying" to keep yourself up to date (or a few years behind at most). This is pretty evident with China of the past few years in military tech, and now they are starting to leap frog (See engine issues with their new fighter, and how they are almost there but not quite. Russia is unwilling to sell them newer engines for fear of copying essentially)

a_concerned 6y ago
Your comment got me interested and i compared die photos of both chips. Intel 8080A die photo: https://vintageteardown.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Intel8080A_10x-1.jpg https://vintageteardown.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Intel... 580BM80A die photo: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/1801BM1/vm80a/master/img/vm80a.jpg https://raw.githubusercontent.com/1801BM1/vm80a/master/img/v... I am not an expert in CPU design, so please correct me if i am wrong, but chips look rather different (at least Intel logo was removed on the 580BM80A die). Could it be that 580BM80A implements Intel's ISA, but actual CPU architecture is of their own? And could we call it a "copy"/"replica" if so? Like could we say that AMD CPUs are replicas of Intel CPUs, because they implement the same ISA?
- kens 6y ago
  Those two chips are a lot more different than I'd expect. (Even taking into account the 90 degree rotation.) In particular, the ALU (upper-left in Intel photo) is fairly regular, while the ALU in the Russian photo (lower-left) looks like random logic. And the PLAs and instruction register seem entirely different between the two. I was skeptical at first, but I think it's possible that the Russian chip is a different implementation, and not just the same circuitry with the layout re-done for their process. It would require a closer look at the circuitry to determine for sure. For the first link, removing https will avoid the expired certificate warning: http://vintageteardown.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Intel8080A_10x-1.jpg http://vintageteardown.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Intel8...

flohofwoe 6y ago

Most likely the same way how enthusiasts are reverse-engineering those 8-bit CPUs today: decapping and tracing the transistors under a microscope. For the East German Z80 clone U880 there are some wild stories of how the secret service stole blueprints from Zilog, but the more believable version of the story is that some chips were smuggled over the border that had simply been bought in West German electronics stores. The East German Z80 version had definitely been reverse engineered - not simply cloned - because the U880 has a slightly different undocumented behaviour (for instance, the undocumented X and Y flags behave differently than on a real Z80), also apparently the Z80 has various 'trap transistors' which prevent that the mask can simply be cloned, those trap transistors had to be found and fixed (I guess this was the reason why the U880 project was delayed by a year or so). The much bigger problem than reverse engineering the chips was setting up manufacturing anyway. For East Germany this definitely happened with secret service support. The story goes that a small chip manufacturing company was set up in West Germany, which soon after declared bancrupty with the entire manufacturing equipment sold off to another company somewhere abroad. "Somehow" that equipment disappeared en route and showed up in East Germany a few months later.

rasz 6y ago
There was also a Polish clone, Afair developed as a PHD thesis by two students. Manufactured between 1982-1993. http://retrokolekcja.pl/MCY7880.php http://retrokolekcja.pl/MCY7880.php For comparison original 8080A: http://retrokolekcja.pl/zdjecia/MCY7880%20struktura%20ITE.jpg http://retrokolekcja.pl/zdjecia/MCY7880%20struktura%20ITE.jp... Polish MCY7880: http://retrokolekcja.pl/zdjecia/MCY7880%20struktura%20ITE.jpg http://retrokolekcja.pl/zdjecia/MCY7880%20struktura%20ITE.jp... Russian KR580BM80: http://retrokolekcja.pl/zdjecia/MCY7880_zsrr.jpg http://retrokolekcja.pl/zdjecia/MCY7880_zsrr.jpg And the absolutely amazing gem. In 1983 legendary science education TV program SONDA documented design and manufacturing of first batches in a humorous lets bake a cake fashion. Paper plotters, light pens, developing/rinsing dies by hand, electron miscroscope debugging, the whole nine yards! part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJGp7keIA_o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJGp7keIA_o part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHl6m93Hay0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHl6m93Hay0 part 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcOTwkT-PDU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcOTwkT-PDU Its amazing anything worked considering really spartan conditions.