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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Real ID act[1] is a national ID in every way but the name. [1]: https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/real-id-act-text.pdf https

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Real ID act[1] is a national ID in every way but the name. [1]: https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/real-id-act-text.pdf https://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/real-id-act-text.pdf

vxNsr 6y ago
Real ID is very worrying and I’m hopeful that it eventually goes away as it keeps getting delayed.
- amiga_500 6y ago
  I just cannot understand how you guys accept bad cops, bad healthcare, bad employment rights, bad social mobility, bad education and bad banks, but apparently national id is where you draw the line. Why didn't you draw the line before all this other stuff that is far behind much of Europe? ------ can't reply directly to the GDP comment as some cry baby has flagged my post and then a free speech loving mod has shadow-banned me with "you're submitting too fast". ---- GDP comparison in $$ terms is a really uninformative comparison. Even between states inside the USA it doesn't work due to different land costs. --- social mobility: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-social-mobility-of-82-countries/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-social-mobility-... USA: 27th. Like the UK, the place you were supposed to break free from - anyone can make it!
  - XMPPwocky 6y ago
    Well, are we supposed to not resist this bad thing because there are other, worse things? That seems less than helpful.
    - amiga_500 6y ago
      I'm expecting you guys to give up on this, just like all the other stuff. Downvote away, but you've lost so many rights since the 1960s, with barely a peep.
      - marincounty 6y ago
        Only on this over moderated site would you be downvoted for telling us the truth. America is in deep trouble. Why do tech companies know they can exploit most workers with their apps? America has way too many desperate people. Amazon, Uber, and the rest, know they will get hungry people to drive, and deliver food, to guys like the founder of this site. Oh yea, his “Insightful” writing is community college level, and lacks heart, or substance. But we lick his boots because we don’t want to offend the spoiled American? After all, we are all going to be at the rich boys club one day? To you that have that cushy tech job with just watch what happens when you hit fifty, or get eaten up by a monopoly. Why do I feel like 99% of you people actually think you will succeed in America? I guarantee it will be a handful out of thousands, unless you have the proverbial empathetic wealthy parent. Hacker News has become a place where wealthy boys can feel good about their lives, filled with delusional fan boys who believe they will be Zuck boys eventually. I was hellbanned for no good reason years ago, so you probably can’t read this, but I needed to write, even to know one. (Oh yea, ban a person from commenting. Don’t email him without permission, and degrade them with petty demands, especially without agreeing to any TOS. Hellbaning is caddy. I still read these comments daily, but quality is lacking. It seems like every comment is filtered for, what’s the word—-conformity? America was not built on Conformity!
      - kube-system 6y ago
        This is simply not true. The number and degree of rights that people have in America is unquestionably higher than the 1960s. I could probably spend 8 hours making a list. Here's a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landmark_court_decisions_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landmark_court_decisio...
        amiga_500 6y ago
        > Discrimination based on race and ethnicity That's "won" is it? You've gone backwards compared to most countries, even if you did write some of it down on a piece of paper.
  - CyberDildonics 6y ago
    I wouldn't call massive sustained protests to be 'accepting'.
    - amiga_500 6y ago
      Mass protests are only about the bad cop bit. You guys have given up everything. Conditions are far below what Europeans would accept. Better late than never, but very late. It's damaging to other countries, for example in the UK emploers are always trying to lower standards to align with new USA lows. Downvote patriots, instead of fixing your country.
      - Alupis 6y ago
        You're receiving downvotes not out of some sort of "Patriot Duty"... You're receiving downvotes because almost all you said is wrong, and/or perceived very differently by US Citizens. This is the danger you wade into when commenting psuedo-authoritatively about the internal politics of another Nation. You're very unlikely to have a complete picture, or deep enough understanding to make anything but surface-level superficial comments. The only sources available are partisan and political, particularly the stuff that makes it's way overseas. It would be unreasonable to expect otherwise. As an American, I could easily retort we could have all the nice things if you European's would just pay for your own militaries for once! But that would be a gross simplification of international politics, and a, likely, gross mischaractarization of your country's politics.
        amiga_500 6y ago
        I agree on the perception part.
  - zymhan 6y ago
    You've built quite the straw man there.
  - mrkstu 6y ago
    We make tradeoffs, just like different all different nations, even amongst those in Europe do. Check out the relative prosperity of the US States individually vs the world: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/us-gdp-per-capita-by-state-vs-european-countries-and-japan-korea-mexico-and-china-and-some-lessons-for-the-donald/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/us-gdp-per-capita-by-state-vs... There are plenty of issues, but all countries have them, the US just tends to get the biggest magnifying glass on theirs.
  - patmorgan23 6y ago
    Hold up the US has some of the highest social modility in the devolved world. (20-40% of people will end up better than their parents)
    - amiga_500 6y ago
      You are ranked 27th.
- jimbob45 6y ago
  I don’t understand the criticism behind RealIDs and the criticism section on Wikipedia wasn’t helpful. Are passports not basically national IDs? Does it just boil down to blocking illegal immigrants from accessing some services?
  - zymhan 6y ago
    Passports are not required to access (pretty much) any Public Service in the US. Passports, Drivers Licenses are optional, as are State IDs. If you _want_ a Federal ID that is accepted by all states, you can certainly get a passport. It's what I often use for ID.
    - MrRadar 6y ago
      This. Passports are available in card form as well as book form too so you can carry a passport card in your wallet with your state ID. I have no plans to get a "Real ID" driver's license since I already have a passport card.
      - felixfbecker 6y ago
        Not every American resident is an American citizen. If you’re not an American citizen, you certainly cannot get an American passport in a fancy card format
  - Reelin 6y ago
    It comes down to an attempt to centralize and make mandatory which translates to excessive control and easy abuse. If there were some pressing real world need for it then perhaps it would be acceptable. There isn't though, so I can only interpret such a move in the most cynical of terms (ie exploiting 9/11 to increase federal power). It's already fairly difficult to get by without a state ID or passport. They're often required where they aren't really needed simply because everyone is assumed to have at least a driver's license. States already collect far more information about you (IMO) than they have any business doing. Various forms of state issued ID are already more than sufficient for the vast majority of use cases. In the rare instance that greater security is required for some reason, passports exist and can be used. (As an example, the DoD has legitimate real world security concerns. As such they've had their own ID card system, which includes a PKI chip, for far longer than most institutions. But no one is complaining (I hope) about being subject to stringent ID requirements while working for the military.)
reaperducer 6y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Real ID act[1] is a national ID in every way but the name. If it was a national ID, it would be mandatory. Real ID is optional.
- Animats 6y ago
  Not if you want to travel by air.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    I'm well aware of this. But nobody is forced to fly in America.
  - Reelin 6y ago
    That's an abusive attempt at a workaround by the Fed to make it mandatory. Thankfully, it appears my state will continue to offer the same IDs it always has in addition to the "enhanced" ones. I suppose I'll have to start using my passport for domestic flights in 2021.
- kube-system 6y ago
  Nothing about the word "national" implies "mandatory". There are other countries with national IDs which are not mandatory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card_policies_by_country#/media/File:National_ID_card_policy.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card... For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_card_(France) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_card_(France...
refurb 6y ago
Not really anymore than drivers licenses are. The Real ID Act just sets a standard for "enhanced" drivers licenses that will also be accepted by various government agencies as "verified ID". Each state still has their own databases of drivers licenses and you can still get the original IDs without the extra verification step (basically proof of address and immigration status). Before Real ID, you pretty much just told them your address and they didn't care that much about immigration status (as long as you were legal). NOTE: this varied by states considerably - some states were already doing many of these things before the Real ID Act (they just were doing it their own way).

vxNsr 6y ago

Real ID is very worrying and I’m hopeful that it eventually goes away as it keeps getting delayed.

amiga_500 6y ago
I just cannot understand how you guys accept bad cops, bad healthcare, bad employment rights, bad social mobility, bad education and bad banks, but apparently national id is where you draw the line. Why didn't you draw the line before all this other stuff that is far behind much of Europe? ------ can't reply directly to the GDP comment as some cry baby has flagged my post and then a free speech loving mod has shadow-banned me with "you're submitting too fast". ---- GDP comparison in $$ terms is a really uninformative comparison. Even between states inside the USA it doesn't work due to different land costs. --- social mobility: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-social-mobility-of-82-countries/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-social-mobility-... USA: 27th. Like the UK, the place you were supposed to break free from - anyone can make it!
- XMPPwocky 6y ago
  Well, are we supposed to not resist this bad thing because there are other, worse things? That seems less than helpful.
  - amiga_500 6y ago
    I'm expecting you guys to give up on this, just like all the other stuff. Downvote away, but you've lost so many rights since the 1960s, with barely a peep.
    - marincounty 6y ago
      Only on this over moderated site would you be downvoted for telling us the truth. America is in deep trouble. Why do tech companies know they can exploit most workers with their apps? America has way too many desperate people. Amazon, Uber, and the rest, know they will get hungry people to drive, and deliver food, to guys like the founder of this site. Oh yea, his “Insightful” writing is community college level, and lacks heart, or substance. But we lick his boots because we don’t want to offend the spoiled American? After all, we are all going to be at the rich boys club one day? To you that have that cushy tech job with just watch what happens when you hit fifty, or get eaten up by a monopoly. Why do I feel like 99% of you people actually think you will succeed in America? I guarantee it will be a handful out of thousands, unless you have the proverbial empathetic wealthy parent. Hacker News has become a place where wealthy boys can feel good about their lives, filled with delusional fan boys who believe they will be Zuck boys eventually. I was hellbanned for no good reason years ago, so you probably can’t read this, but I needed to write, even to know one. (Oh yea, ban a person from commenting. Don’t email him without permission, and degrade them with petty demands, especially without agreeing to any TOS. Hellbaning is caddy. I still read these comments daily, but quality is lacking. It seems like every comment is filtered for, what’s the word—-conformity? America was not built on Conformity!
    - kube-system 6y ago
      This is simply not true. The number and degree of rights that people have in America is unquestionably higher than the 1960s. I could probably spend 8 hours making a list. Here's a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landmark_court_decisions_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landmark_court_decisio...
      - amiga_500 6y ago
        > Discrimination based on race and ethnicity That's "won" is it? You've gone backwards compared to most countries, even if you did write some of it down on a piece of paper.
- CyberDildonics 6y ago
  I wouldn't call massive sustained protests to be 'accepting'.
  - amiga_500 6y ago
    Mass protests are only about the bad cop bit. You guys have given up everything. Conditions are far below what Europeans would accept. Better late than never, but very late. It's damaging to other countries, for example in the UK emploers are always trying to lower standards to align with new USA lows. Downvote patriots, instead of fixing your country.
    - Alupis 6y ago
      You're receiving downvotes not out of some sort of "Patriot Duty"... You're receiving downvotes because almost all you said is wrong, and/or perceived very differently by US Citizens. This is the danger you wade into when commenting psuedo-authoritatively about the internal politics of another Nation. You're very unlikely to have a complete picture, or deep enough understanding to make anything but surface-level superficial comments. The only sources available are partisan and political, particularly the stuff that makes it's way overseas. It would be unreasonable to expect otherwise. As an American, I could easily retort we could have all the nice things if you European's would just pay for your own militaries for once! But that would be a gross simplification of international politics, and a, likely, gross mischaractarization of your country's politics.
      - amiga_500 6y ago
        I agree on the perception part.
- zymhan 6y ago
  You've built quite the straw man there.
- mrkstu 6y ago
  We make tradeoffs, just like different all different nations, even amongst those in Europe do. Check out the relative prosperity of the US States individually vs the world: https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/us-gdp-per-capita-by-state-vs-european-countries-and-japan-korea-mexico-and-china-and-some-lessons-for-the-donald/ https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/us-gdp-per-capita-by-state-vs... There are plenty of issues, but all countries have them, the US just tends to get the biggest magnifying glass on theirs.
- patmorgan23 6y ago
  Hold up the US has some of the highest social modility in the devolved world. (20-40% of people will end up better than their parents)
  - amiga_500 6y ago
    You are ranked 27th.
jimbob45 6y ago
I don’t understand the criticism behind RealIDs and the criticism section on Wikipedia wasn’t helpful. Are passports not basically national IDs? Does it just boil down to blocking illegal immigrants from accessing some services?
- zymhan 6y ago
  Passports are not required to access (pretty much) any Public Service in the US. Passports, Drivers Licenses are optional, as are State IDs. If you _want_ a Federal ID that is accepted by all states, you can certainly get a passport. It's what I often use for ID.
  - MrRadar 6y ago
    This. Passports are available in card form as well as book form too so you can carry a passport card in your wallet with your state ID. I have no plans to get a "Real ID" driver's license since I already have a passport card.
    - felixfbecker 6y ago
      Not every American resident is an American citizen. If you’re not an American citizen, you certainly cannot get an American passport in a fancy card format
- Reelin 6y ago
  It comes down to an attempt to centralize and make mandatory which translates to excessive control and easy abuse. If there were some pressing real world need for it then perhaps it would be acceptable. There isn't though, so I can only interpret such a move in the most cynical of terms (ie exploiting 9/11 to increase federal power). It's already fairly difficult to get by without a state ID or passport. They're often required where they aren't really needed simply because everyone is assumed to have at least a driver's license. States already collect far more information about you (IMO) than they have any business doing. Various forms of state issued ID are already more than sufficient for the vast majority of use cases. In the rare instance that greater security is required for some reason, passports exist and can be used. (As an example, the DoD has legitimate real world security concerns. As such they've had their own ID card system, which includes a PKI chip, for far longer than most institutions. But no one is complaining (I hope) about being subject to stringent ID requirements while working for the military.)

reaperducer 6y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Real ID act[1] is a national ID in every way but the name. If it was a national ID, it would be mandatory. Real ID is optional.

Animats 6y ago
Not if you want to travel by air.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  I'm well aware of this. But nobody is forced to fly in America.
- Reelin 6y ago
  That's an abusive attempt at a workaround by the Fed to make it mandatory. Thankfully, it appears my state will continue to offer the same IDs it always has in addition to the "enhanced" ones. I suppose I'll have to start using my passport for domestic flights in 2021.
kube-system 6y ago
Nothing about the word "national" implies "mandatory". There are other countries with national IDs which are not mandatory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card_policies_by_country#/media/File:National_ID_card_policy.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_identity_card... For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_card_(France) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_card_(France...

refurb 6y ago

Not really anymore than drivers licenses are. The Real ID Act just sets a standard for "enhanced" drivers licenses that will also be accepted by various government agencies as "verified ID". Each state still has their own databases of drivers licenses and you can still get the original IDs without the extra verification step (basically proof of address and immigration status). Before Real ID, you pretty much just told them your address and they didn't care that much about immigration status (as long as you were legal). NOTE: this varied by states considerably - some states were already doing many of these things before the Real ID Act (they just were doing it their own way).