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If only Oracle would stop gimping performance on the free version of GraalVM. The best optimizations, the ones that make it faster than OpenJDK, are $$$$$. And

If only Oracle would stop gimping performance on the free version of GraalVM. The best optimizations, the ones that make it faster than OpenJDK, are $$$$$. And they're trying to replace OpenJDK's compiler with Graal, to convert Java back into a language where performance costs money. Imagine if the free version of gcc or clang had gimped performance. The whole purpose of a compiler is to build code that's as performant as possible. I won't go near Graal

chrisseaton 6y ago
> The best optimizations, the ones that make it faster than OpenJDK, are $$$$$. But Twitter run free Graal and it's faster than OpenJDK (let's be more specific and say C2) for them.
- throwaway189262 6y ago
  They have a Scala-heavy codebase that benefits from the of the optimizations C2 in OpenJDk doesn't do. In the general case, Oracle optimized free Graal to the point it was just on-par with OpenJDK and made the additional optimizations commercial only
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    So you agree it’s on-par with OpenJDK, and admit sometimes a lot better in practice, and it’s free... and you’re still not happy simply because there exists something even better which isn’t free?
    - throwaway189262 6y ago
      It's an official implementation, the beginnings of a segment of the ecosystem. A different Java compiler was what Google started with on Android... Look at the mess they created now. If code runs differently on official platforms Commercial Graal can build a moat where code X doesn't work well on OpenJDK. Eventually you end up with code that works on OpenJDK and Graal EE, and a subset that only works well on Graal EE. This is why, in my mind, compilers from official sources should always be free. Since Graal EE performs better there's nothing stopping Oracle from pulling a Chrome. Take all the market share then a few years later use your market power to start fucking with the ecosystem
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        It implements the same Java specification as every other Java implementation. It's a conforming implementation. How can an extra implementation of exactly the same standard possibly be a bad thing? This is what we want isn't it? Multiple implementations innovating to improve while keeping to the same spec? So if you don't want to pay for Graal EE it doesn't matter because your code still runs everywhere, and because CE is as good as OpenJDK you're no worse off in any case. Or are you saying they're going to break the spec? Well that's just a baseless speculation so not useful to talk about in my opinion. We're really lucky that Oracle are investing so much money on pushing the limit of Java performance, and that they make the vast majority of it open source. Few companies have the money and institutional knowledge to do this.
pjmlp 6y ago
So what? Developers need money as well. Imagine if the free version of gcc or clang had some of the performance improvements that only come with forked versions available from OEMs. This free beer mentality is damaging for software tools, thankfully one can still work for corporations where money is no problem and thus have access to nice tools.
- nurettin 6y ago
  When tooling is tucked behind glass doors, your chances of getting a useless SAP guy is much higher. From a business perspective, I'd rather have all the tools available for anyone.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Free beer tooling is what gives us the performance of JIT and GC implementations on MRI Ruby and CPython, or the RAD capabilities of native toolkits aimed at GNU/Linux desktop, because living from donations and Patreon can only do so much for a few selected lucky souls. I rather prefer that fellow developers get paid the same way I enjoy being paid as well, and yes I don't have any issues being that SAP guy if it much be so. Being useless or not, is a matter or perspective, and I find sad that in forum tailored for creating new business, so few people are willing to pay for their tools.
    - nurettin 6y ago
      I'm down with paying for tools when creating value, not when learning. We probably even agree. I do not expect many experts to appear at my doorstep if the tool is proprietary. SAP was an example of that.
adrianN 6y ago
This talk was formative for my opinion of Oracle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc (the good bit starts at 32 minutes)

chrisseaton 6y ago

> The best optimizations, the ones that make it faster than OpenJDK, are $$$$$. But Twitter run free Graal and it's faster than OpenJDK (let's be more specific and say C2) for them.

throwaway189262 6y ago
They have a Scala-heavy codebase that benefits from the of the optimizations C2 in OpenJDk doesn't do. In the general case, Oracle optimized free Graal to the point it was just on-par with OpenJDK and made the additional optimizations commercial only
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  So you agree it’s on-par with OpenJDK, and admit sometimes a lot better in practice, and it’s free... and you’re still not happy simply because there exists something even better which isn’t free?
  - throwaway189262 6y ago
    It's an official implementation, the beginnings of a segment of the ecosystem. A different Java compiler was what Google started with on Android... Look at the mess they created now. If code runs differently on official platforms Commercial Graal can build a moat where code X doesn't work well on OpenJDK. Eventually you end up with code that works on OpenJDK and Graal EE, and a subset that only works well on Graal EE. This is why, in my mind, compilers from official sources should always be free. Since Graal EE performs better there's nothing stopping Oracle from pulling a Chrome. Take all the market share then a few years later use your market power to start fucking with the ecosystem
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      It implements the same Java specification as every other Java implementation. It's a conforming implementation. How can an extra implementation of exactly the same standard possibly be a bad thing? This is what we want isn't it? Multiple implementations innovating to improve while keeping to the same spec? So if you don't want to pay for Graal EE it doesn't matter because your code still runs everywhere, and because CE is as good as OpenJDK you're no worse off in any case. Or are you saying they're going to break the spec? Well that's just a baseless speculation so not useful to talk about in my opinion. We're really lucky that Oracle are investing so much money on pushing the limit of Java performance, and that they make the vast majority of it open source. Few companies have the money and institutional knowledge to do this.

pjmlp 6y ago

So what? Developers need money as well. Imagine if the free version of gcc or clang had some of the performance improvements that only come with forked versions available from OEMs. This free beer mentality is damaging for software tools, thankfully one can still work for corporations where money is no problem and thus have access to nice tools.

nurettin 6y ago
When tooling is tucked behind glass doors, your chances of getting a useless SAP guy is much higher. From a business perspective, I'd rather have all the tools available for anyone.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Free beer tooling is what gives us the performance of JIT and GC implementations on MRI Ruby and CPython, or the RAD capabilities of native toolkits aimed at GNU/Linux desktop, because living from donations and Patreon can only do so much for a few selected lucky souls. I rather prefer that fellow developers get paid the same way I enjoy being paid as well, and yes I don't have any issues being that SAP guy if it much be so. Being useless or not, is a matter or perspective, and I find sad that in forum tailored for creating new business, so few people are willing to pay for their tools.
  - nurettin 6y ago
    I'm down with paying for tools when creating value, not when learning. We probably even agree. I do not expect many experts to appear at my doorstep if the tool is proprietary. SAP was an example of that.

adrianN 6y ago

This talk was formative for my opinion of Oracle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc (the good bit starts at 32 minutes)