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To be fair, and you even bringing it up, apple products is to some degree the fashion equivalent in tech. I recently had to buy a MacOs compatible hardware for

To be fair, and you even bringing it up, apple products is to some degree the fashion equivalent in tech. I recently had to buy a MacOs compatible hardware for the first time in years, and I had really no idea how large the difference has become. Apple products truly are "way of life", more than anything tangible. And when choosing to upgrade components, I really couldn't believe it. It was more than twice the comparable value. In some cases 8 times. In what other industry are people willing to pay at least more than twice, for the same hardware?

ponker 6y ago
But there are functional reasons to prefer Apple hardware as well. I use almost exclusively Apple hardware and I own one garment worth more than $30.
lotsofpulp 6y ago
> In what other industry are people willing to pay at least more than twice, for the same hardware? The whole premise is incorrect, so the conclusions are incorrect. The hardware is not the same, and even if it was, clearly the software makes a difference to the user. The whole Apple fashion status trope is tired and has never been true. The amortized cost of an Apple device in my 15 year + experience with them has always been less than the competitors. Especially if you add my troubleshooting time. Not to mention they’ve been selling iPad Minis for $400 for 7 or 8 years, and they now have an iPhone at $400. Their stuff works, they offer physical stores you can get technical support at, and they seem to be the best offering for privacy conscious users.
- cma 6y ago
  Upgrading an ssd on them costs 3-4x as much as on a normal laptop.
- mthoms 6y ago
  >The whole Apple fashion status trope is tired and has never been true. I love (and almost exclusively use) Apple products for many of the reasons you listed. But I think it's disingenuous to deny that there is an element of Apple's branding and design that is based on fashion. Exhibit A: Laptops and phones getting thinner and thinner at the expense of battery life and other features (headphone jack). Exhibit B: “A computer absolutely can be sexy… yeah, it can” – The glorious ways Jony Ive has described Apple products https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/sophisticated-intuitive-imperceptible-and-instantaneous-here-are-the-glorious-ways-jony-ive-has-described-apple-products-3888655 https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/sophisticated-intuitive-...
  - sukilot 6y ago
    There's a difference between fashionable junk and fashionable quality. The difference is what Jobs and Ive call "design". Spending extra on design isn't the eco disaster that spending on throwaway fashion is.
    - mthoms 6y ago
      You're preaching to the converted. I only disagreed with the notion that there is absolutely no "fashion" component of Apple's products or branding at all. Of course there is.
- rumanator 6y ago
  > The whole premise is incorrect, so the conclusions are incorrect. The hardware is not the same, and even if it was, clearly the software makes a difference to the user. Speaking as someone who has spent a fair share of money on Apple products, It really doesn't. Apple is in the business of selling Veblen goods, and unless you are in a niche domain that requires niche software, Apple does not offer anything that makes a significant difference when compared with what ships with other platforms. This is specially true nowadays as the bulk of the work done by anyone is performed through a browser. I mean, Finder works but no one spends $2k on a laptop just because you can open files like a champ. In order to understand the appeal of Apple's product line, all you need to check is the rationale of companies who try to entice potential hires by advertising how they make available flashy Apple hardware to their employees.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    The entirety of my grandparents generation being able to Facetime their grandkids all over the world since 2010 isn’t a Veblen good. My non English fluent and tech illiterate family members can browse the internet and click on all the malware links without worrying about losing personal data or ruining their device. That’s not a Veblen good either. My time doing tech support going down to zero because the solution is either power cycle the device or take it to an Apple store is not a Veblen good either.
    - rumanator 6y ago
      > The entirety of my grandparents generation being able to Facetime their grandkids all over the world since 2010 isn’t a Veblen good. You are being disingenuous if you believe that Apple Facetime is the only or even dominant voice and/or video call system. WhatsApp alone has between 4 and 5 times the market share of Apple's FaceTime. You need to come up with another explanation. > My non English fluent and tech illiterate family members can browse the internet and click on all the malware links without worrying about losing personal data or ruining their device. That’s not a Veblen good either. Quite frankly, that's complete bullshit. The majority of web users, whether they are computer illiterate or not, don't worry about "malware links" at all, and that concern simply doesn not register in the mind of the Facebook+Instagram+WhatsApp+Twitter crowd.
hombre_fatal 6y ago
> In what other industry are people willing to pay at least more than twice, for the same hardware? Just about all of them, from cars to ski equipment. But that's not what's happening here.
ImaCake 6y ago
I recently got a macbook after having never owned an apple computer (besides a 2nd hand iphone 5). The improvements compared to windows and linux are really impressive. This device does exactly what I want it for; unix native shell support and performance without linux problems. Windows still has it's place, but Macbooks still provide real value.
vladvasiliu 6y ago
There's clearly an appeal of the Apple brand to people. But I think that the appeal comes much more as a form of "general belonging" rather than as a "fad". Usually "fashionable" items (be it clothing or others) are quite noticeably different from year to year. To the untrained eye, my 7 year old mbp doesn't look all that different from a brand new 2020 one. If I open it up in public, I'll look like "a guy who uses apple". People won't know that I'm out of style because I rock an "ancient" laptop. This seems true for iphones, too. The models before the X look somewhat different because of the button, but aside from the cameras being changed, I can't easily tell apart the newer models without a home button.

ponker 6y ago

But there are functional reasons to prefer Apple hardware as well. I use almost exclusively Apple hardware and I own one garment worth more than $30.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

> In what other industry are people willing to pay at least more than twice, for the same hardware? The whole premise is incorrect, so the conclusions are incorrect. The hardware is not the same, and even if it was, clearly the software makes a difference to the user. The whole Apple fashion status trope is tired and has never been true. The amortized cost of an Apple device in my 15 year + experience with them has always been less than the competitors. Especially if you add my troubleshooting time. Not to mention they’ve been selling iPad Minis for $400 for 7 or 8 years, and they now have an iPhone at $400. Their stuff works, they offer physical stores you can get technical support at, and they seem to be the best offering for privacy conscious users.

cma 6y ago
Upgrading an ssd on them costs 3-4x as much as on a normal laptop.
mthoms 6y ago
>The whole Apple fashion status trope is tired and has never been true. I love (and almost exclusively use) Apple products for many of the reasons you listed. But I think it's disingenuous to deny that there is an element of Apple's branding and design that is based on fashion. Exhibit A: Laptops and phones getting thinner and thinner at the expense of battery life and other features (headphone jack). Exhibit B: “A computer absolutely can be sexy… yeah, it can” – The glorious ways Jony Ive has described Apple products https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/sophisticated-intuitive-imperceptible-and-instantaneous-here-are-the-glorious-ways-jony-ive-has-described-apple-products-3888655 https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/sophisticated-intuitive-...
- sukilot 6y ago
  There's a difference between fashionable junk and fashionable quality. The difference is what Jobs and Ive call "design". Spending extra on design isn't the eco disaster that spending on throwaway fashion is.
  - mthoms 6y ago
    You're preaching to the converted. I only disagreed with the notion that there is absolutely no "fashion" component of Apple's products or branding at all. Of course there is.
rumanator 6y ago
> The whole premise is incorrect, so the conclusions are incorrect. The hardware is not the same, and even if it was, clearly the software makes a difference to the user. Speaking as someone who has spent a fair share of money on Apple products, It really doesn't. Apple is in the business of selling Veblen goods, and unless you are in a niche domain that requires niche software, Apple does not offer anything that makes a significant difference when compared with what ships with other platforms. This is specially true nowadays as the bulk of the work done by anyone is performed through a browser. I mean, Finder works but no one spends $2k on a laptop just because you can open files like a champ. In order to understand the appeal of Apple's product line, all you need to check is the rationale of companies who try to entice potential hires by advertising how they make available flashy Apple hardware to their employees.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  The entirety of my grandparents generation being able to Facetime their grandkids all over the world since 2010 isn’t a Veblen good. My non English fluent and tech illiterate family members can browse the internet and click on all the malware links without worrying about losing personal data or ruining their device. That’s not a Veblen good either. My time doing tech support going down to zero because the solution is either power cycle the device or take it to an Apple store is not a Veblen good either.
  - rumanator 6y ago
    > The entirety of my grandparents generation being able to Facetime their grandkids all over the world since 2010 isn’t a Veblen good. You are being disingenuous if you believe that Apple Facetime is the only or even dominant voice and/or video call system. WhatsApp alone has between 4 and 5 times the market share of Apple's FaceTime. You need to come up with another explanation. > My non English fluent and tech illiterate family members can browse the internet and click on all the malware links without worrying about losing personal data or ruining their device. That’s not a Veblen good either. Quite frankly, that's complete bullshit. The majority of web users, whether they are computer illiterate or not, don't worry about "malware links" at all, and that concern simply doesn not register in the mind of the Facebook+Instagram+WhatsApp+Twitter crowd.

hombre_fatal 6y ago

> In what other industry are people willing to pay at least more than twice, for the same hardware? Just about all of them, from cars to ski equipment. But that's not what's happening here.

ImaCake 6y ago

I recently got a macbook after having never owned an apple computer (besides a 2nd hand iphone 5). The improvements compared to windows and linux are really impressive. This device does exactly what I want it for; unix native shell support and performance without linux problems. Windows still has it's place, but Macbooks still provide real value.

vladvasiliu 6y ago

There's clearly an appeal of the Apple brand to people. But I think that the appeal comes much more as a form of "general belonging" rather than as a "fad". Usually "fashionable" items (be it clothing or others) are quite noticeably different from year to year. To the untrained eye, my 7 year old mbp doesn't look all that different from a brand new 2020 one. If I open it up in public, I'll look like "a guy who uses apple". People won't know that I'm out of style because I rock an "ancient" laptop. This seems true for iphones, too. The models before the X look somewhat different because of the button, but aside from the cameras being changed, I can't easily tell apart the newer models without a home button.