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Its a shame that the flashman chronicles are not mentioned. I suspect that its omitted because of the use of contemporary language and attitudes to colonialism

Its a shame that the flashman chronicles are not mentioned. I suspect that its omitted because of the use of contemporary language and attitudes to colonialism that would shock those of a twitter "pile on" persuasion. However unlike the vast majority of the novels mentioned, Flashman has a rich bibliography and good footnotes. This means that if you don't believe the story, you can check the first hand sources yourself.

JadeNB 6y ago
> I suspect that its omitted because of the use of contemporary language and attitudes to colonialism that would shock those of a twitter "pile on" persuasion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashman_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashman_(novel) ? (I ask because it's from 1969, which I, perhaps wrongly, don't think of as terribly contemporary.) > However unlike the vast majority of the novels mentioned, Flashman has a rich bibliography and good footnotes. This means that if you don't believe the story, you can check the first hand sources yourself. Without meaning to deny the importance of a rich bibliography and good references, I would point out that you can (and ideally should) check sources yourself even if—especially if—the author hasn't identified them for you.
- triceratops 6y ago
  I think they mean contemporary with the period the novels are set in. I've read a couple of the Flashman books and while they're quite fun, the stuff happening in them in and the language is decidedly un-PC (and that's a massive understatement). This is by design - Flashman is an amoral, despicable, and cowardly character, and colonialism was all of those things. We're meant to be horrified by the stuff Flash and the people around him do and say so casually.
  - JadeNB 6y ago
    > I think they mean contemporary with the period the novels are set in. That makes much more sense, thanks! Accusations of Twitter hysteria can be slung so easily against any side of a divide that I wasn't sure whether the claim was of modern attitudes that would draw ire for undue social activism, or of older attitudes that would draw ire for insensitivity.
    - tptacek 6y ago
      The allusion to Twitter culture did not help that comment; it would have been better --- both shorter and clearer --- without it.
triceratops 6y ago
I also think the Flashman books fly under the radar, but not for the reasons you suspect. No one so far has tried to cancel Tarantino despite the liberal use of racist slurs by characters in his works. Most people can tell the difference between authors/creators and their characters. I think "anti-hero as protagonist" just wasn't so popular in the 60s and 70s, when the Flashman series was written. Flashman goes well beyond anti-hero, sometimes into downright villainy. If the Flashman books were written and released today, they might do better.
- pjc50 6y ago
  No, people have tried to "cancel" Tarantino for things that he's done, said, or been associated with: https://theconversation.com/tarantino-has-a-questionable-record-in-the-metoo-context-so-should-we-boycott-his-new-film-121985 https://theconversation.com/tarantino-has-a-questionable-rec... (stunt negligence resulting in serious injury to Uma Thurman is probably the most serious) Meanwhile, Flashman is so obviously himself an anti-hero and a parody of the Boys' Own style. Flashman himself does not paint a good picture of the Empire.
  - triceratops 6y ago
    What you're saying is the equivalent of trying to cancel Flash because of something George MacDonald Fraser did or said. You haven't disproved what I said: Tarantino hasn't been subject to "cancellation" because some of his characters are bad people, which is what GP was predicting would happen to the Flashman series today. (Also note: Tarantino is still very popular, so the "cancel" mob lost anyway) Flashman is a terrible human being, but that's part of the fun. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia has been on TV for years and their core cast of characters are also terrible people. Unlikable protagonists can be very entertaining if written well.
pjc50 6y ago
> Flashman has a rich bibliography and good footnotes. This means that if you don't believe the story, you can check the first hand sources yourself. What does this mean? Flashman is fiction. Versimilitude is not the same as accuracy.
- KaiserPro 6y ago
  Flashman _is_ fiction, but the events he is dropped into, and the characters that he interacts with are real. Which is the danger of historical novels, that the characterisation of historical figures are changed to fit the narrative. Which is why I love the links to the primary sources to see if the author is talking porkies or not.
cafard 6y ago
Since you mention Flashman, let me recommend Fraser's memoir of WW II enlisted service, Quartered Safe Out Here.

JadeNB 6y ago

> I suspect that its omitted because of the use of contemporary language and attitudes to colonialism that would shock those of a twitter "pile on" persuasion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashman_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashman_(novel) ? (I ask because it's from 1969, which I, perhaps wrongly, don't think of as terribly contemporary.) > However unlike the vast majority of the novels mentioned, Flashman has a rich bibliography and good footnotes. This means that if you don't believe the story, you can check the first hand sources yourself. Without meaning to deny the importance of a rich bibliography and good references, I would point out that you can (and ideally should) check sources yourself even if—especially if—the author hasn't identified them for you.

triceratops 6y ago
I think they mean contemporary with the period the novels are set in. I've read a couple of the Flashman books and while they're quite fun, the stuff happening in them in and the language is decidedly un-PC (and that's a massive understatement). This is by design - Flashman is an amoral, despicable, and cowardly character, and colonialism was all of those things. We're meant to be horrified by the stuff Flash and the people around him do and say so casually.
- JadeNB 6y ago
  > I think they mean contemporary with the period the novels are set in. That makes much more sense, thanks! Accusations of Twitter hysteria can be slung so easily against any side of a divide that I wasn't sure whether the claim was of modern attitudes that would draw ire for undue social activism, or of older attitudes that would draw ire for insensitivity.
  - tptacek 6y ago
    The allusion to Twitter culture did not help that comment; it would have been better --- both shorter and clearer --- without it.

triceratops 6y ago

I also think the Flashman books fly under the radar, but not for the reasons you suspect. No one so far has tried to cancel Tarantino despite the liberal use of racist slurs by characters in his works. Most people can tell the difference between authors/creators and their characters. I think "anti-hero as protagonist" just wasn't so popular in the 60s and 70s, when the Flashman series was written. Flashman goes well beyond anti-hero, sometimes into downright villainy. If the Flashman books were written and released today, they might do better.

pjc50 6y ago
No, people have tried to "cancel" Tarantino for things that he's done, said, or been associated with: https://theconversation.com/tarantino-has-a-questionable-record-in-the-metoo-context-so-should-we-boycott-his-new-film-121985 https://theconversation.com/tarantino-has-a-questionable-rec... (stunt negligence resulting in serious injury to Uma Thurman is probably the most serious) Meanwhile, Flashman is so obviously himself an anti-hero and a parody of the Boys' Own style. Flashman himself does not paint a good picture of the Empire.
- triceratops 6y ago
  What you're saying is the equivalent of trying to cancel Flash because of something George MacDonald Fraser did or said. You haven't disproved what I said: Tarantino hasn't been subject to "cancellation" because some of his characters are bad people, which is what GP was predicting would happen to the Flashman series today. (Also note: Tarantino is still very popular, so the "cancel" mob lost anyway) Flashman is a terrible human being, but that's part of the fun. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia has been on TV for years and their core cast of characters are also terrible people. Unlikable protagonists can be very entertaining if written well.

pjc50 6y ago

> Flashman has a rich bibliography and good footnotes. This means that if you don't believe the story, you can check the first hand sources yourself. What does this mean? Flashman is fiction. Versimilitude is not the same as accuracy.

KaiserPro 6y ago
Flashman _is_ fiction, but the events he is dropped into, and the characters that he interacts with are real. Which is the danger of historical novels, that the characterisation of historical figures are changed to fit the narrative. Which is why I love the links to the primary sources to see if the author is talking porkies or not.

cafard 6y ago

Since you mention Flashman, let me recommend Fraser's memoir of WW II enlisted service, Quartered Safe Out Here.