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I'm not downvoting but 1. Implying the downfall of mainframes was due to protectionist policies and not the _PC_ is an incredible leap. 2. Comparing Japan to

I'm not downvoting but 1. Implying the downfall of mainframes was due to protectionist policies and not the _PC_ is an incredible leap. 2. Comparing Japan to China in this situation is bizarre. 3. Your reply does nothing to show that this situation is: * cartoonish * racist * utterly foolish protectionism We know today that Huawei has a history of IP Theft from American multinationals[1] and is suspected of building backdoors into networking infrastructure (from the article). You seem to advocate that the US should just take this lying down. This is a classic prisoners dilemma situation, and Huawei has been choosing "betray" for 20 years. I can't see, how after 20 years of playing nice, that the US response is cartoonish, racist or foolish protectionism. [1] https://www.prosperousamerica.org/top_five_cases_of_huawei_ip_theft_and_patent_infringement https://www.prosperousamerica.org/top_five_cases_of_huawei_i...

infinity0 6y ago
The very name of that website sounds like some sort of propaganda department. Notwithstanding that, the claims it makes are all of comparatively trivial offenses. The "top 3rd" one was awarded 10 million by a US court, peanuts compared to company revenue (e.g. a US judge awarded Apple 1 billion in damages from Samsung). The "top 2nd" one links to a blog by a Cisco officer whose only technically-specific example he could give was copying some code from strcmp.c - ooooo strcmp.c! That is going to really get an edge over the competition! LOL. The PDF link describing details about the 1st one was broken, but it sounds like a standard case of employees leaving a company to work for a competitor (allowed under California law) and the old company going sour grapes. Didn't bother reading 4 and 5, after how overblown 2 and 3 were.
- nemothekid 6y ago
  I'm sorry I didn't analyze the source too hard before selecting. I'm only really familiar with Huawei's and Cisco's patent troubles (summarized on Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Huawei#Cisco_patent_lawsuit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Huawei#Cisco_pate...)
  - infinity0 6y ago
    The wikipedia article does not go into that much technical details. Do you have more? Given that the Cisco officer could only talk about strcmp and not something more substantial, I am inclined to believe the story was overblown. On a separate note, I think the biggest most obvious question that any accuser has to answer is, if Huawei copied so much significant material, why are they ahead of everyone else? It takes time to digest copied technology, it is not a simple case of just copying your competitor's source code then racing ahead of them with a massive sales team and non-technical economic prowess. Given that intellectual property laws were constructed to (supposedly) encourage innovation, even if Huawei did get to where they are now by copying, doesn't that suggest that in fact it's a good thing, they have brought all this extra innovative technology to the world? Or are the monopolists simply going sour grapes because they are no longer at the the forefront?
    - infinity0 6y ago
      Typical anonymous cowards at hacker news, downvoting without the guts or intellect to actually defend their own religious ideologies.
      - mtnGoat 6y ago
        It has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Just simply right and wrong, stealing is wrong. Stop justifying it and you'll probably stop getting downvoted.
    - nemothekid 6y ago
      >The wikipedia article does not go into that much technical details. Do you have more? Given that the Cisco officer could only talk about strcmp and not something more substantial, I am inclined to believe the story was overblown. It's wikipedia man - that section alone has 8 cited sources. Healthy skepticism is a good thing, but I'm not going to spoonfeed you. >it is not a simple case of just copying your competitor's source code then racing ahead of them with a massive sales team and non-technical economic prowess But this is exactly what happened in Huawei's case. Huawei is known for being cheaper than Cisco and providing way better support than Cisco. It's easy to throw bodies at sales & support when you don't pay R&D. They aren't even ahead of everyone else - Cisco's hardware is still more performant and Ericsson is still more widely deployed. 5G simply provided a new ground where everyone would start from 0. I don't know why you are being downvoted but your questions don't seem relevant. What does it matter that monopolists are going sour grapes? If I steal from you, and use that money to buy a fancy car, and get thrown in jail, will any lawyer use the defense "infinity0 was jealous of my fancy car"?
kristopolous 6y ago
We can't do a counterfactual. Perhaps the technical superiority of mainframes could have been maintained with greater competition and investments in the "right" pursuits instead of focusing on being litigious and covetous. Seagate also had some 80s theft but instead they chose to focus on their next technologies and making better products. "They can't steal our quality" is the quote I remember. Corporate espionage happens a lot. I've had it happen to me, at companies I've been involved in, multiple times. Of course we are supposed to ignore how common it is and focus on China and then assume everyone else are honest moral angels getting hoodwinked. Nonsense. The accusations are framed as if because something is Chinese we cannot trust it. There's suspicions, hunches, and feelings. You even used "suspected". As if "well we can't trust those shifty Asians". This will get us nowhere. Build better stuff. Also you can't down vote replies, but thanks anyway. Your nonsense is entertaining
- pc86 6y ago
  Surely we can disagree without calling well-intentioned comments "nonsense."
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - kristopolous 6y ago
    but it's clearly not. it's a "call in the troops" brigading. I said essentially the same things here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24101407 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24101407 which was outside their thread of interest so it didn't go in the deep negatives. Same message, different parent, radically different results. So it's not good faith, it's some dumb bad faith psychological game. It's an Ash conformity test. I'm supposed to think "hrmm, maybe 'Chinaman is evil' race-baiting IS correct, look at all the people who think that!" Nope. Not happening. I know the scam. I know I'm not the crazy one, there's groups of racist internet lunatics that go around and do attacks like this ... that's why I dropped it. They can have their fun. I have other things to do with my time, but I'm retracting absolutely nothing. They can try to move that overton window somewhere else.
- 6y ago

infinity0 6y ago

The very name of that website sounds like some sort of propaganda department. Notwithstanding that, the claims it makes are all of comparatively trivial offenses. The "top 3rd" one was awarded 10 million by a US court, peanuts compared to company revenue (e.g. a US judge awarded Apple 1 billion in damages from Samsung). The "top 2nd" one links to a blog by a Cisco officer whose only technically-specific example he could give was copying some code from strcmp.c - ooooo strcmp.c! That is going to really get an edge over the competition! LOL. The PDF link describing details about the 1st one was broken, but it sounds like a standard case of employees leaving a company to work for a competitor (allowed under California law) and the old company going sour grapes. Didn't bother reading 4 and 5, after how overblown 2 and 3 were.

nemothekid 6y ago
I'm sorry I didn't analyze the source too hard before selecting. I'm only really familiar with Huawei's and Cisco's patent troubles (summarized on Wikipedia here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Huawei#Cisco_patent_lawsuit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Huawei#Cisco_pate...)
- infinity0 6y ago
  The wikipedia article does not go into that much technical details. Do you have more? Given that the Cisco officer could only talk about strcmp and not something more substantial, I am inclined to believe the story was overblown. On a separate note, I think the biggest most obvious question that any accuser has to answer is, if Huawei copied so much significant material, why are they ahead of everyone else? It takes time to digest copied technology, it is not a simple case of just copying your competitor's source code then racing ahead of them with a massive sales team and non-technical economic prowess. Given that intellectual property laws were constructed to (supposedly) encourage innovation, even if Huawei did get to where they are now by copying, doesn't that suggest that in fact it's a good thing, they have brought all this extra innovative technology to the world? Or are the monopolists simply going sour grapes because they are no longer at the the forefront?
  - infinity0 6y ago
    Typical anonymous cowards at hacker news, downvoting without the guts or intellect to actually defend their own religious ideologies.
    - mtnGoat 6y ago
      It has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Just simply right and wrong, stealing is wrong. Stop justifying it and you'll probably stop getting downvoted.
  - nemothekid 6y ago
    >The wikipedia article does not go into that much technical details. Do you have more? Given that the Cisco officer could only talk about strcmp and not something more substantial, I am inclined to believe the story was overblown. It's wikipedia man - that section alone has 8 cited sources. Healthy skepticism is a good thing, but I'm not going to spoonfeed you. >it is not a simple case of just copying your competitor's source code then racing ahead of them with a massive sales team and non-technical economic prowess But this is exactly what happened in Huawei's case. Huawei is known for being cheaper than Cisco and providing way better support than Cisco. It's easy to throw bodies at sales & support when you don't pay R&D. They aren't even ahead of everyone else - Cisco's hardware is still more performant and Ericsson is still more widely deployed. 5G simply provided a new ground where everyone would start from 0. I don't know why you are being downvoted but your questions don't seem relevant. What does it matter that monopolists are going sour grapes? If I steal from you, and use that money to buy a fancy car, and get thrown in jail, will any lawyer use the defense "infinity0 was jealous of my fancy car"?

kristopolous 6y ago

We can't do a counterfactual. Perhaps the technical superiority of mainframes could have been maintained with greater competition and investments in the "right" pursuits instead of focusing on being litigious and covetous. Seagate also had some 80s theft but instead they chose to focus on their next technologies and making better products. "They can't steal our quality" is the quote I remember. Corporate espionage happens a lot. I've had it happen to me, at companies I've been involved in, multiple times. Of course we are supposed to ignore how common it is and focus on China and then assume everyone else are honest moral angels getting hoodwinked. Nonsense. The accusations are framed as if because something is Chinese we cannot trust it. There's suspicions, hunches, and feelings. You even used "suspected". As if "well we can't trust those shifty Asians". This will get us nowhere. Build better stuff. Also you can't down vote replies, but thanks anyway. Your nonsense is entertaining

pc86 6y ago
Surely we can disagree without calling well-intentioned comments "nonsense."
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- kristopolous 6y ago
  but it's clearly not. it's a "call in the troops" brigading. I said essentially the same things here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24101407 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24101407 which was outside their thread of interest so it didn't go in the deep negatives. Same message, different parent, radically different results. So it's not good faith, it's some dumb bad faith psychological game. It's an Ash conformity test. I'm supposed to think "hrmm, maybe 'Chinaman is evil' race-baiting IS correct, look at all the people who think that!" Nope. Not happening. I know the scam. I know I'm not the crazy one, there's groups of racist internet lunatics that go around and do attacks like this ... that's why I dropped it. They can have their fun. I have other things to do with my time, but I'm retracting absolutely nothing. They can try to move that overton window somewhere else.
6y ago