5 ms·

Why is your society so intolerant of immigration? Did you run out of room or perhaps there are scaling problems?

zamadatix 6y ago
Outside of Luxembourg Switzerland has the highest net migration rate by percentage of population of all western countries. Based on that I don't think it's intolerance of immigration as much as "scaling problems" as you put it.
marcinzm 6y ago
What is the benefit of large scale immigration beyond helping with the low birth rate? Switzerland is a successful economically prosperous country with a strong cultural identity.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- netsharc 6y ago
  One of the answers to your question is in your second sentence. A significant part of migration is highly educated people moving to a different country for skilled work. Which benefits the host country because it means their companies get the skilled workers, are more productive, and pay more taxes. (Before someone says "They're taking our jerbs!", in Germany and Switzerland they are desperate for good engineers.) It's even better if they were educated elsewhere, meaning the host countries get these highly educated labor force "for free". On the flip side, it's a brain drain for the exporting countries, of course.
  - randompwd 6y ago
    Also on the flip side, it hurts labour. A natural limit on a sought after skill means fairer $$$. Any profession which has inbuilt labour limits (chartered accounting/lawyer) means those professions get paid fair market value.
  - boomer_joe 6y ago
    >in Germany and Switzerland they are desperate for good engineers This is absolutely not true. I don't know why anyone would lie so blatantly. Engineering and CS graduates are present in abundance, and the job market is brutal.
    - kyawzazaw 6y ago
      Germany just recently passed a new law (in additional to the easier blue card visa). I suppose it will be mostly used by tech companies. What do you think about that?
    - ThePadawan 6y ago
      What part of "Germany and Switzerland" I've lived in a major urban region of Switzerland for the last 12 years and I could not disagree more. I've seen companies looking for capable software engineers for years, including paid relocation and arranging temporary housing for them to move into.
    - silicon2401 6y ago
      The German job market is brutal for software engineers? How feasible would it be for an American SE to get a job and move to Germany?
      - marcinzm 6y ago
        Brutal != high salaries. I know someone who got triple the salary when moving from Germany to the US without even trying that hard (FAANG would have been something like 6-8x the salary).
    - netsharc 6y ago
      Thanks for accusing me of lying. Got any statistics to prove me wrong? I suppose I should also do research to prove what I believe to be right, but from the amount of headhunters contacting me on LinkedIn, my gut feeling is I'm not wrong... BTW an abundance of graduates don't always equal "good engineers". There is also an abundance of mediocre engineers.
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    >Which benefits the host country because it means their companies get the skilled workers, are more productive, and pay more taxes. If a country already has a high per capita GDP why does it need more money? What do the people in the country gain from more money in total? More labor generally lowers how much workers are paid so each person in the country is likely to get less money afterwards. More productive workers means more workaholic workers which again moves the bar so locals are now expected to work more as well. Again, a net loss for the existing population.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  > Switzerland is a successful economically prosperous country with a strong cultural identity. Who is also countinously looking for people going to work there. I got a call for a remote job for a U.N. agency two weeks ago. They are calling it immigration, but it's more people going there for tax benefits or because have been called there or because the U.N. and many Financial or Legal HQ offices are there.
Hermel 6y ago
It’s the large numbers. One of the Swiss Sunday newspapers has published the latest numbers today. Depending on the canton, foreigners are between 15% and 50% of the population. And among children below 6, the Swiss have become a minority in their own country.
- chrischen 6y ago
  Isn’t swiss basically originally just French and Germans?
  - microtherion 6y ago
    How would you define "originally"? Switzerland has demonstrable signs of habitation by Homo erectus 300,000 years ago and by Neanderthals. It was part of the Roman empire for several hundred years. It has been de jure independent since 1648 (with the exception of a few years of Napoleonic control), and de facto for at least 150 years before that. And yes, in between there were were several hundred years where Switzerland was part of whatever passed for "France" and "Germany" in those times, but I'm not sure that era was any more fundamental than the rest of history.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    French , Germans and Italians. Which, together, still make today 50% of all the "foreigners" living in Switzerland. They are called immigrants, but are actually people with a grandfather who went there 50-60 years ago who never became a regular citizen.
    - microtherion 6y ago
      That used to be common until a few decades ago, but naturalization for Swiss-born children of immigrants has become much easier in recent years (and much more of a legal right, rather than a privilege granted at the discretion of communities). Only 0.1% of the Swiss population are non-naturalized third generation immigrants, and only 2.4% are non-naturalized second generation immigrants. https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/population/migration-integration/by-migration-status.html https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/population/m... This is still higher than e.g. in the US, where the corresponding numbers are close to zero, but it's not nearly as high as it used to be.
microtherion 6y ago
* In Switzerland, about 30% of the population are foreign born — comparable with e.g. a classical immigration country like Australia, higher than Canada, and twice the proportion of the US. So I would not agree that the Swiss are particularly intolerant of immigration. * Switzerland is relatively densely populated, especially considering that a sizable proportion of it is not really habitable.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  > In Switzerland, about 30% of the population are foreign born Not really true, it's around 23% and on about 1,900,000 immigrants, over 85% are Europeans, 300,000 are Italians, 295,000 are Germans and 110,000 are French, which are not really immigrants in the real sense being official languages in Switzerland (Italians were over 450,000 in the 80s, so there are less Italians than before in Switzerland). On the other side Germans were very few in the 80s and are now the second largest group, due to tax benefits Swiss banks can guarantuee to very rich people (Switzerland is basically a tax heaven, that's the main drive for immigration, they are not really having an "immigration problem" like other countries in Europe are facing). One popular example of such auto inflicted "immigration" is Ingvar Kamprad, IKEA founder, who lived in Switzerland for 40 years or Carlo De Benedetti, industrialist and media publisher, who's born Italian but naturalized Swiss citizen . One other point to consider is that immigration in Switzerland is also due U.N. agencies being there. The third and last point: Switzerland is surrounded by Alps, immigrant go there using planes, they are not the kind of immigrants that come to Europe on shitty boats in the Mediterranean sea.
  - skissane 6y ago
    > on about 1,900,000 immigrants, over 85% are Europeans, 300,000 are Italians, 295,000 are Germans and 110,000 are French, which are not really immigrants in the real sense being official languages in Switzerland Who ever said that immigrants don't count as immigrants if they already speak the national language? My mother's family immigrated from the UK to Australia when she was a child. They all spoke English as a native language. That fact didn't make them any less "immigrants". Back then (early 1950s), the vast majority of immigrants to Australia were native English speakers and had always been (back to the very start of European colonisation). It was only in the subsequent decades that immigration to Australia diversified and native English-speakers became a successively smaller percentage of all immigrants. But even today, the number one country of birth for foreign-born Australians remains England; China and India are in the second and third spots, respectively; New Zealand fourth. (Australian immigration statistics treat the four constituent countries of the UK separately.) https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/lookup/3412.0Media%20Release12018-19 https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/lookup/3412.0Media%...

Outside of Luxembourg Switzerland has the highest net migration rate by percentage of population of all western countries. Based on that I don't think it's intolerance of immigration as much as "scaling problems" as you put it.

marcinzm 6y ago

What is the benefit of large scale immigration beyond helping with the low birth rate? Switzerland is a successful economically prosperous country with a strong cultural identity.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
netsharc 6y ago
One of the answers to your question is in your second sentence. A significant part of migration is highly educated people moving to a different country for skilled work. Which benefits the host country because it means their companies get the skilled workers, are more productive, and pay more taxes. (Before someone says "They're taking our jerbs!", in Germany and Switzerland they are desperate for good engineers.) It's even better if they were educated elsewhere, meaning the host countries get these highly educated labor force "for free". On the flip side, it's a brain drain for the exporting countries, of course.
- randompwd 6y ago
  Also on the flip side, it hurts labour. A natural limit on a sought after skill means fairer $$$. Any profession which has inbuilt labour limits (chartered accounting/lawyer) means those professions get paid fair market value.
- boomer_joe 6y ago
  >in Germany and Switzerland they are desperate for good engineers This is absolutely not true. I don't know why anyone would lie so blatantly. Engineering and CS graduates are present in abundance, and the job market is brutal.
  - kyawzazaw 6y ago
    Germany just recently passed a new law (in additional to the easier blue card visa). I suppose it will be mostly used by tech companies. What do you think about that?
  - ThePadawan 6y ago
    What part of "Germany and Switzerland" I've lived in a major urban region of Switzerland for the last 12 years and I could not disagree more. I've seen companies looking for capable software engineers for years, including paid relocation and arranging temporary housing for them to move into.
  - silicon2401 6y ago
    The German job market is brutal for software engineers? How feasible would it be for an American SE to get a job and move to Germany?
    - marcinzm 6y ago
      Brutal != high salaries. I know someone who got triple the salary when moving from Germany to the US without even trying that hard (FAANG would have been something like 6-8x the salary).
  - netsharc 6y ago
    Thanks for accusing me of lying. Got any statistics to prove me wrong? I suppose I should also do research to prove what I believe to be right, but from the amount of headhunters contacting me on LinkedIn, my gut feeling is I'm not wrong... BTW an abundance of graduates don't always equal "good engineers". There is also an abundance of mediocre engineers.
- marcinzm 6y ago
  >Which benefits the host country because it means their companies get the skilled workers, are more productive, and pay more taxes. If a country already has a high per capita GDP why does it need more money? What do the people in the country gain from more money in total? More labor generally lowers how much workers are paid so each person in the country is likely to get less money afterwards. More productive workers means more workaholic workers which again moves the bar so locals are now expected to work more as well. Again, a net loss for the existing population.
romanoderoma 6y ago
> Switzerland is a successful economically prosperous country with a strong cultural identity. Who is also countinously looking for people going to work there. I got a call for a remote job for a U.N. agency two weeks ago. They are calling it immigration, but it's more people going there for tax benefits or because have been called there or because the U.N. and many Financial or Legal HQ offices are there.

Hermel 6y ago

It’s the large numbers. One of the Swiss Sunday newspapers has published the latest numbers today. Depending on the canton, foreigners are between 15% and 50% of the population. And among children below 6, the Swiss have become a minority in their own country.

chrischen 6y ago
Isn’t swiss basically originally just French and Germans?
- microtherion 6y ago
  How would you define "originally"? Switzerland has demonstrable signs of habitation by Homo erectus 300,000 years ago and by Neanderthals. It was part of the Roman empire for several hundred years. It has been de jure independent since 1648 (with the exception of a few years of Napoleonic control), and de facto for at least 150 years before that. And yes, in between there were were several hundred years where Switzerland was part of whatever passed for "France" and "Germany" in those times, but I'm not sure that era was any more fundamental than the rest of history.
- romanoderoma 6y ago
  French , Germans and Italians. Which, together, still make today 50% of all the "foreigners" living in Switzerland. They are called immigrants, but are actually people with a grandfather who went there 50-60 years ago who never became a regular citizen.
  - microtherion 6y ago
    That used to be common until a few decades ago, but naturalization for Swiss-born children of immigrants has become much easier in recent years (and much more of a legal right, rather than a privilege granted at the discretion of communities). Only 0.1% of the Swiss population are non-naturalized third generation immigrants, and only 2.4% are non-naturalized second generation immigrants. https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/population/migration-integration/by-migration-status.html https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/population/m... This is still higher than e.g. in the US, where the corresponding numbers are close to zero, but it's not nearly as high as it used to be.

microtherion 6y ago

* In Switzerland, about 30% of the population are foreign born — comparable with e.g. a classical immigration country like Australia, higher than Canada, and twice the proportion of the US. So I would not agree that the Swiss are particularly intolerant of immigration. * Switzerland is relatively densely populated, especially considering that a sizable proportion of it is not really habitable.

romanoderoma 6y ago
> In Switzerland, about 30% of the population are foreign born Not really true, it's around 23% and on about 1,900,000 immigrants, over 85% are Europeans, 300,000 are Italians, 295,000 are Germans and 110,000 are French, which are not really immigrants in the real sense being official languages in Switzerland (Italians were over 450,000 in the 80s, so there are less Italians than before in Switzerland). On the other side Germans were very few in the 80s and are now the second largest group, due to tax benefits Swiss banks can guarantuee to very rich people (Switzerland is basically a tax heaven, that's the main drive for immigration, they are not really having an "immigration problem" like other countries in Europe are facing). One popular example of such auto inflicted "immigration" is Ingvar Kamprad, IKEA founder, who lived in Switzerland for 40 years or Carlo De Benedetti, industrialist and media publisher, who's born Italian but naturalized Swiss citizen . One other point to consider is that immigration in Switzerland is also due U.N. agencies being there. The third and last point: Switzerland is surrounded by Alps, immigrant go there using planes, they are not the kind of immigrants that come to Europe on shitty boats in the Mediterranean sea.
- skissane 6y ago
  > on about 1,900,000 immigrants, over 85% are Europeans, 300,000 are Italians, 295,000 are Germans and 110,000 are French, which are not really immigrants in the real sense being official languages in Switzerland Who ever said that immigrants don't count as immigrants if they already speak the national language? My mother's family immigrated from the UK to Australia when she was a child. They all spoke English as a native language. That fact didn't make them any less "immigrants". Back then (early 1950s), the vast majority of immigrants to Australia were native English speakers and had always been (back to the very start of European colonisation). It was only in the subsequent decades that immigration to Australia diversified and native English-speakers became a successively smaller percentage of all immigrants. But even today, the number one country of birth for foreign-born Australians remains England; China and India are in the second and third spots, respectively; New Zealand fourth. (Australian immigration statistics treat the four constituent countries of the UK separately.) https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/lookup/3412.0Media%20Release12018-19 https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/lookup/3412.0Media%...