8 ms·

This is a slippery slope towards overworking, where work blends into life. This isn't how things should be. Unless you're a PhD student like me :)

maps7 6y ago
> This isn't how things should be What is this based on?
- xapata 6y ago
  That was clearly a subjective ethical statement. The speaker would have used "ought" if they wanted to appear objective.
  - ryanklee 6y ago
    It's not common in English for that distinction to accomplish the work that you're asserting it does. "Should" and "ought" are synonymous. "Ought" has a more formal tone, but outside technical settings in which the distinction might really matter, no one should be drawing any conclusions from the choice.
    - AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
      Perhaps you aren't aware of Hume's "Is-Ought Problem" [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem
      - rosstex 6y ago
        I ought to think twice before starting a comment thread on HN now
      - JadeNB 6y ago
        That seems to be distinguishing, as the name suggests, between 'is' and 'ought', not between 'should' and 'ought'. Indeed, both the article itself, and its quotes from Hume, seem to use 'should' as nearly synonymous with 'ought'. (Even if I've got it wrong, ryanklee claimed that "[i]t's not common" to make that distinction, and pointing to the technical work of philosophers doesn't undermine the claim about common useage.)
        xapata 6y ago
        Back in high school, Lincoln-Douglas competitive debate taught that "should" was for practical justifications and "ought" was for ethical justifications. Again, to your point, most people don't bother to be so careful with their choices of words.
    - xapata 6y ago
      > no one should be drawing any conclusions from the choice But they ought to. ;-)
      - eindiran 6y ago
        https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/should https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/should 1. (auxiliary) Be obliged to; have an obligation to; indicates that the subject of the sentence has some obligation to execute the sentence predicate or that the speaker has some strong advice but has no authority to enforce it. 2. (auxiliary) ought to; speaker's opinion, or advice that an action is correct, beneficial, or desirable.
        xapata 6y ago
        Yes, yes, the language has synonyms. However, the beauty of synonyms is being able to create slight distinctions between them. A native speaker often learns connotations that don't appear in short definitions of some words. Punto e basta.
user_501238901 6y ago
It's how "work" always was for thousands of years, before the office culture meme changed it during the 20th century
- mertd 6y ago
  Is that so? There was a period during industrial revolution, where people were hopelessly overworked but before that most people must have a had fairly well defined work-life boundaries.
  - manmal 6y ago
    They also had to mend their shoes and wash clothes in the river, so leisure time was not exactly comparable.
- Nimitz14 6y ago
  Oh so the internet and the endless distractions it brings with it existed in the 19th century as well? /s You couldn't be more wrong. There is mountains of evidence that attention spans have shorted, and parent comment was a perfect example of that. Can't be arsed to deal with whatever you should be doing? Ctrl + pgdown to the twitch tab.
  - NamTaf 6y ago
    I don't know about you, but no matter how much I try I can't just spontaneously summon up focus if my mind's not commmited to it. I was that way in school, in uni and now in work. Working in an office pretending that I can focus on the task at hand whenever required by the roster of office life is one of the biggest charades I've ever performed. It's not possible for me and I piss around on the internet on their time when I am unable to focus. I don't feel that's an abnormal situation for people, either, as it seems many of my colleagues also do it.
NamTaf 6y ago
Conceded, it can be a slippery slope for some. For me it's not, thankfully. I've no doubt the rigid clock-on/clock-off process helps to keep some people from overworking, but that isn't me. Even in the office I would show up when I finally got to showing up, and would leave when I felt I'd, personally, done enough for the day. I have absolutely no qualms with putting down my laptop when I feel I'm done. The major difference is that instead of my mindless scrolling through HN or something at 2pm being on work time that is just lost to unproductivity, it's now not because I can get up and do something (grocery run, make lunch, etc.), and conversely that burst of focus and energy in the evening now goes towards productive work rather than focusing more on a videogame or something.

maps7 6y ago

> This isn't how things should be What is this based on?

xapata 6y ago
That was clearly a subjective ethical statement. The speaker would have used "ought" if they wanted to appear objective.
- ryanklee 6y ago
  It's not common in English for that distinction to accomplish the work that you're asserting it does. "Should" and "ought" are synonymous. "Ought" has a more formal tone, but outside technical settings in which the distinction might really matter, no one should be drawing any conclusions from the choice.
  - AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
    Perhaps you aren't aware of Hume's "Is-Ought Problem" [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem
    - rosstex 6y ago
      I ought to think twice before starting a comment thread on HN now
    - JadeNB 6y ago
      That seems to be distinguishing, as the name suggests, between 'is' and 'ought', not between 'should' and 'ought'. Indeed, both the article itself, and its quotes from Hume, seem to use 'should' as nearly synonymous with 'ought'. (Even if I've got it wrong, ryanklee claimed that "[i]t's not common" to make that distinction, and pointing to the technical work of philosophers doesn't undermine the claim about common useage.)
      - xapata 6y ago
        Back in high school, Lincoln-Douglas competitive debate taught that "should" was for practical justifications and "ought" was for ethical justifications. Again, to your point, most people don't bother to be so careful with their choices of words.
  - xapata 6y ago
    > no one should be drawing any conclusions from the choice But they ought to. ;-)
    - eindiran 6y ago
      https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/should https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/should 1. (auxiliary) Be obliged to; have an obligation to; indicates that the subject of the sentence has some obligation to execute the sentence predicate or that the speaker has some strong advice but has no authority to enforce it. 2. (auxiliary) ought to; speaker's opinion, or advice that an action is correct, beneficial, or desirable.
      - xapata 6y ago
        Yes, yes, the language has synonyms. However, the beauty of synonyms is being able to create slight distinctions between them. A native speaker often learns connotations that don't appear in short definitions of some words. Punto e basta.

user_501238901 6y ago

It's how "work" always was for thousands of years, before the office culture meme changed it during the 20th century

mertd 6y ago
Is that so? There was a period during industrial revolution, where people were hopelessly overworked but before that most people must have a had fairly well defined work-life boundaries.
- manmal 6y ago
  They also had to mend their shoes and wash clothes in the river, so leisure time was not exactly comparable.
Nimitz14 6y ago
Oh so the internet and the endless distractions it brings with it existed in the 19th century as well? /s You couldn't be more wrong. There is mountains of evidence that attention spans have shorted, and parent comment was a perfect example of that. Can't be arsed to deal with whatever you should be doing? Ctrl + pgdown to the twitch tab.
- NamTaf 6y ago
  I don't know about you, but no matter how much I try I can't just spontaneously summon up focus if my mind's not commmited to it. I was that way in school, in uni and now in work. Working in an office pretending that I can focus on the task at hand whenever required by the roster of office life is one of the biggest charades I've ever performed. It's not possible for me and I piss around on the internet on their time when I am unable to focus. I don't feel that's an abnormal situation for people, either, as it seems many of my colleagues also do it.

NamTaf 6y ago

Conceded, it can be a slippery slope for some. For me it's not, thankfully. I've no doubt the rigid clock-on/clock-off process helps to keep some people from overworking, but that isn't me. Even in the office I would show up when I finally got to showing up, and would leave when I felt I'd, personally, done enough for the day. I have absolutely no qualms with putting down my laptop when I feel I'm done. The major difference is that instead of my mindless scrolling through HN or something at 2pm being on work time that is just lost to unproductivity, it's now not because I can get up and do something (grocery run, make lunch, etc.), and conversely that burst of focus and energy in the evening now goes towards productive work rather than focusing more on a videogame or something.