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Piercings, tattoos, unnatural hair colors and certain apparel commonly associated with "the left" - those are all tribal ornaments. They subvert or deconstruct

Piercings, tattoos, unnatural hair colors and certain apparel commonly associated with "the left" - those are all tribal ornaments. They subvert or deconstruct nothing, they signal in-group/out-group membership. In terms of a natural instinct for aesthetics, I would argue that tribal ornaments are in fact generally unpleasant, which makes them honest signals. Certain African tribes have ornamentations that are outright mutilations. Similarly, as the ornaments of an out-group get appropriated by broader society, its ornaments must become more extreme to achieve the desired effect (e.g. the rise of facial tattoos). Furthermore, signaling society as a whole that you represent an out-group (and therefore a potential threat) confers various disadvantages, which also fits neatly into some oppression narrative that a proper leftist must endure.

ivraatiems 6y ago
> They subvert or deconstruct nothing, they signal in-group/out-group membership. Why can't they do both? When you call a body alteration someone made by choice a "mutilation", you're viewing it from your cultural context, not theirs. Your context might be the default where you live, but it isn't the only one. That's the whole point: The limits of aesthetically pleasing appearance are subjective and shouldn't be dictated by what you or I personally find comfortable. Sure, there's a signaling component to what people wear. But to assert people are getting face tattoos just to indicate which political tribe they're in is an extreme claim that requires substantial evidence. Do you have any?
- gridlockd 6y ago
  > Why can't they do both? Because you can actually see the opposite happening: Mainstream culture subverts tribal ornamentation by picking up the look as fashion but discarding the essence, a process also known as "cultural appropriation". As for deconstruction, I just don't see it. Well, maybe I sort of see it with the unnatural hair colors. Maybe you can explain how? > When you call a body alteration someone made by choice a "mutilation", you're viewing it from your cultural context, not theirs. Particularly, I was thinking of the practice of amputating the small finger that is practiced by certain Xhosa tribes. Objectively speaking, it confers no advantages, not even those that could be attributed to the genital mutilation practiced in Abrahamic religions. It therefore is a very strong tribal signal - and unlikely to be appropriated. > That's the whole point: The limits of aesthetically pleasing appearance are subjective and shouldn't be dictated by what you or I personally find comfortable. What "should or should not be" is of no consequence to basic primate behavior: You send an out-group signal, you get the out-group treatment - and vice versa. > But to assert people are getting face tattoos just to indicate which political tribe they're in is an extreme claim that requires substantial evidence. I didn't actually claim that. In any event, it doesn't have to be a political tribe per se, nor does it have to be one particular tribe. A Maori is going to have a face tattoo for different reasons than a rapper. By getting a face tattoo you are at least implicitly positioning yourself against anyone who thinks face tattoos are bad, which probably includes 99% of "conservatives". Unless you're Maori of course, then maybe getting a face tattoo would be the "conservative" thing to do.
  - ivraatiems 6y ago
    > Because you can actually see the opposite happening: Mainstream culture subverts tribal ornamentation by picking up the look as fashion but discarding the essence, a process also known as "cultural appropriation". I don't think this means you can't use counterculture to deconstruct mainstream culture, but I agree that it's a barrier. However, I disagree with any implication that the purpose of ornamentation is only in/out-group identification, to the extent you're making it here, and I'll explore that further. > As for deconstruction, I just don't see it. Well, maybe I sort of see it with the unnatural hair colors. Maybe you can explain how? I think it's following the same basic logic the grandparent comment/originator of the thread described. It says "here is something I choose to do to myself, which I say is beautiful, in part because you say it isn't beautiful." That's a deconstructive framing and justification for the action. But I want to back up for a second. I'm not asserting that a given person who believes in social justice causes, and chooses to dye their hair pink, necessarily chooses consciously to associate those two things. I think it's possible, but it's equally likely that the person sees their friends doing it, thinks it would look good on them (for whatever "good" means in their mind), and so does something similar. > What "should or should not be" is of no consequence to basic primate behavior: You send an out-group signal, you get the out-group treatment - and vice versa. The predominant implication here, to me, is that the basic primate behavior as you understand it is the driving influence. And that could be, in the same sense that our basic desire to eat leads us to order takeout instead of going hungry. My concern is that reducing an action to the most basic impetus, discarding what "should or should not be", and discarding all the other reasons one could have for taking an action that are also factors, eliminates understanding by eliminating nuance. If we think of someone's act of self-expression predominantly through the lens of which groups it signals what to, we're losing a lot of information; as you say: > A Maori is going to have a face tattoo for different reasons than a rapper. but I'm more concerned about the nuance of those reasons than identifying the primal drive. The primal stuff is easy to find; it's the layers between that and the action where we can learn more, and/or influence behavior. You can say "I know why this person has done thing X; it's to signal to outgroup Y" - but you don't actually know that, and even if you did, I'm not sure how it's helpful without more information.

ivraatiems 6y ago

> They subvert or deconstruct nothing, they signal in-group/out-group membership. Why can't they do both? When you call a body alteration someone made by choice a "mutilation", you're viewing it from your cultural context, not theirs. Your context might be the default where you live, but it isn't the only one. That's the whole point: The limits of aesthetically pleasing appearance are subjective and shouldn't be dictated by what you or I personally find comfortable. Sure, there's a signaling component to what people wear. But to assert people are getting face tattoos just to indicate which political tribe they're in is an extreme claim that requires substantial evidence. Do you have any?

gridlockd 6y ago
> Why can't they do both? Because you can actually see the opposite happening: Mainstream culture subverts tribal ornamentation by picking up the look as fashion but discarding the essence, a process also known as "cultural appropriation". As for deconstruction, I just don't see it. Well, maybe I sort of see it with the unnatural hair colors. Maybe you can explain how? > When you call a body alteration someone made by choice a "mutilation", you're viewing it from your cultural context, not theirs. Particularly, I was thinking of the practice of amputating the small finger that is practiced by certain Xhosa tribes. Objectively speaking, it confers no advantages, not even those that could be attributed to the genital mutilation practiced in Abrahamic religions. It therefore is a very strong tribal signal - and unlikely to be appropriated. > That's the whole point: The limits of aesthetically pleasing appearance are subjective and shouldn't be dictated by what you or I personally find comfortable. What "should or should not be" is of no consequence to basic primate behavior: You send an out-group signal, you get the out-group treatment - and vice versa. > But to assert people are getting face tattoos just to indicate which political tribe they're in is an extreme claim that requires substantial evidence. I didn't actually claim that. In any event, it doesn't have to be a political tribe per se, nor does it have to be one particular tribe. A Maori is going to have a face tattoo for different reasons than a rapper. By getting a face tattoo you are at least implicitly positioning yourself against anyone who thinks face tattoos are bad, which probably includes 99% of "conservatives". Unless you're Maori of course, then maybe getting a face tattoo would be the "conservative" thing to do.
- ivraatiems 6y ago
  > Because you can actually see the opposite happening: Mainstream culture subverts tribal ornamentation by picking up the look as fashion but discarding the essence, a process also known as "cultural appropriation". I don't think this means you can't use counterculture to deconstruct mainstream culture, but I agree that it's a barrier. However, I disagree with any implication that the purpose of ornamentation is only in/out-group identification, to the extent you're making it here, and I'll explore that further. > As for deconstruction, I just don't see it. Well, maybe I sort of see it with the unnatural hair colors. Maybe you can explain how? I think it's following the same basic logic the grandparent comment/originator of the thread described. It says "here is something I choose to do to myself, which I say is beautiful, in part because you say it isn't beautiful." That's a deconstructive framing and justification for the action. But I want to back up for a second. I'm not asserting that a given person who believes in social justice causes, and chooses to dye their hair pink, necessarily chooses consciously to associate those two things. I think it's possible, but it's equally likely that the person sees their friends doing it, thinks it would look good on them (for whatever "good" means in their mind), and so does something similar. > What "should or should not be" is of no consequence to basic primate behavior: You send an out-group signal, you get the out-group treatment - and vice versa. The predominant implication here, to me, is that the basic primate behavior as you understand it is the driving influence. And that could be, in the same sense that our basic desire to eat leads us to order takeout instead of going hungry. My concern is that reducing an action to the most basic impetus, discarding what "should or should not be", and discarding all the other reasons one could have for taking an action that are also factors, eliminates understanding by eliminating nuance. If we think of someone's act of self-expression predominantly through the lens of which groups it signals what to, we're losing a lot of information; as you say: > A Maori is going to have a face tattoo for different reasons than a rapper. but I'm more concerned about the nuance of those reasons than identifying the primal drive. The primal stuff is easy to find; it's the layers between that and the action where we can learn more, and/or influence behavior. You can say "I know why this person has done thing X; it's to signal to outgroup Y" - but you don't actually know that, and even if you did, I'm not sure how it's helpful without more information.