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I briefly got involved in wolf stuff in Washington state. Participating in the Wolf Advisory Group and so forth. What I learned shouldn't have surprised me. Her

I briefly got involved in wolf stuff in Washington state. Participating in the Wolf Advisory Group and so forth. What I learned shouldn't have surprised me. Here's the state's wolf page: https://wdfw.wa.gov/species-habitats/at-risk/species-recovery/gray-wolf https://wdfw.wa.gov/species-habitats/at-risk/species-recover... (I don't know anything about the Alaska wolf stuff covered by this article.) My takeaways: My state now works very closely with ranchers to manage wolves. Both livestock and wolves are tagged and tracked, to better keep them apart. Most everyone involved is trying to do the right thing. It was super impressive. So different from when I worked on salmon conservation. The wolf coalition formed by the state, ranchers, and conservationists had a very hard genesis, but somehow managed to function and move forward. And most ranchers were on board with protecting the wolves. There's always that one asshole who just cannot fucking color within the lines. Our major incidents which made the news (state culling wolves) were orchestrated by a vehemently anti-wolf whackadoodle rancher who grazed his livestock right on top of known wolf dens. This one yahoo purposefully sabotaged the coalition's efforts. Our current predator management laws are pretty unforgiving and easily gamed. (As of 2017, I haven't kept track of the reform efforts.) Whereas the state has to kill wolves in response to incidents, there are no consequences for the rogue rancher. I knew ranching was a tough gig. My brief contact reinforced that view. Pre COVID-19, I speculated that most non-corporate ranchers would not survive. Futurist me thinks their salvation is "artisanal" meats, sold to high-end customers (yuppies at farmers markets), until such time vat grown meat makes ranch meat a premium product. Adjacently, our Federal Bureau of Land Management is thoroughly corrupt and desperately needs a do-over. BLM leadership will continue to block and sabotage any and all cultural, economic, moral progress. Thereby negatively impacting everything from watershed restoration, protecting endangered species, climate change. Etc.

subhro 6y ago
Probably going to get lots of downvote for this comment, but I am going to take it on my chin and not use a throwaway account. I hope that whackadoodle rancher starves to death if not dead already. I will take that as a positive outcome of COVID-19.
- StevePerkins 6y ago
  Sometimes, "I'm probably going to get downvoted for this! But..." is an effective reverse-psychology ploy. Which leads to upvotes for the "unpopular" opinion, that many if not most people actually share. Other times, the comment really is awful, and genuinely deserves to be downvoted away.
Gustomaximus 6y ago
> until such time vat grown meat makes ranching meat a premium product. I suspect farmed meat will be able to reduce price significantly to demand. Reason is much of the price is based on the land values. Also feed, but that can be reduced with stocking rates as land value drops. And given much grazing land isn't useful for other formats of farming, I suspect in the future were going to see significant drops to cattle grazing land values allowing it to stay price competitive to lab meat as that scales up. On the other hand the moral argument is hard to win, and I say that as a meat eater. I suspect justifying eating farmed meat is going to seriously dwindle in a few generations once the 'that's how its always been' mentality has softened.
- dtech 6y ago
  > I suspect justifying eating farmed meat is going to seriously dwindle in a few generations once the 'that's how its always been' mentality has softened. It will start more seriously once lab/vat grown-meat becomes a viable competitor. Suddenly it won't be "necessary" anymore to eat animals and ethics will rapidly shift. I don't think it's a coincidence societies view on slavery shifted at the same time as the industrial revolution made pure mechanical human labor less valuable, and that opinions on the legality in the US states roughly was determined whether that state's economics was dependent on slave labor or not.
  - markstos 6y ago
    No need to wait for for "clean meat" as an excuse, it's already not necessary to eat animals.
    - dtech 6y ago
      It is not necessary in the same way that it is not necessary to drink alcohol or watch Netflix. People still want to do it. This makes killing animals an economic necessity to supply a large amount of demand. That will only change with lab grown meat or indistinguishable-from-the-real-thing meat replacements.
SanchoPanda 6y ago
BLM management does seem to have improved in other areas, thinking of their interactions with the third largest city in Nevada each year for the week before labor day.
EdwardDiego 6y ago
> This one yahoo purposefully sabotaged the coalition's efforts. Unfortunately this is always the way. In my country it's the farmer who still shoots kea[1] for predating his sheep, despite their protected status (and their being here first) and the fact that proper livestock management would prevent that - they typically only predate sheep that are snowbound, and a good farmer doesn't leave his sheep in the high country when snow's forecast. Or it's the hunters who transport deer species that have a negative impact on native plants to new areas for their hunting opportunities, or just to stick it to the man - I have no direct link for this, but entire truckloads of Sika deer have been intercepted trying to cross the strait between our North and South islands - Sika deer are well-established in the North Island (Te Ika-a-Maui/The Fish of Maui) but non-existent in the South Island (Te Wai Pounamu/The Waters of Greenstone(Nephrite Jade)), yet deer transporter trucks filled with Sika have been stopped trying to board the ferry. Which I don't get, plenty of red, fallow, and white-tail deer in the South Island. Likewise, there's been a spread of fallow deer over the country - typically they don't spread that far naturally, but from the 12 original herds introduced, there's been, shall we say, a continual leakage to other areas of the country. And of course, perhaps, ecologically more relevant, is the deliberate introduction of Bennett's wallabies from the relatively small area of the South Island they were originally released in, to areas in the North Island. They have a significant impact, and speaking frankly as a hunter, they're a bit shit, so I don't really understand why anyone would bother other than to be contrary. [1]: http://nzbirdsonline.org.nz/species/kea http://nzbirdsonline.org.nz/species/kea and also https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/native-animals/birds/birds-a-z/kea/ https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/native-animals/birds/birds-a-... with special highlights: * A kea learnt to turn on the water tap at Aspiring Hut campground. * A kea locked a mountaineer inside the toilet at Mueller Hut. * A kea learnt to use tools to set off stoat traps to get the eggs. * A kea was seen having a tug-of-war with a cat over a rabbit carcass. * A kea that was being attacked by magpies hid behind a tramper who fended them off. To which I'd add: * I thought my flatmate was tipping out my cylindrical ashtray I kept outside as a passive-aggressive way of telling me to quit smoking. Turns out, two kea were tipping it on its side to kick between them like a football * I once had to counsel a German hiker whose boots, pack, and tent were systematically dismantled by a gang of young male kea when he was camped on a high alpine pass, he fled barefoot with his belongings in his arms * An older kea had figured out he had enough time when someone went into the local tearooms to run in and grab a chocolate bar and exit before the self-closing door closed. Until one day they moved the chocolate (on account of the kea thefts) and he was trapped in the tearooms and flew around screeching merrily to everyone's horror * Gangs of young male kea used to hang out by the toilets in town and dare each other on to make a car's tyres make that "psssssh" sound - which often resulted in people with two flat tyres on one side seeking assistance * When working in the visitor centre I handled three complaints about kea stealing passports at a popular photo site. There was a common modus operandi - one kea would jump around and act cute for the camera, while their buddies snuck up behind the distracted tourist and rifled through their belongings. Passports, on account of often having a shiny coat of arms, were often the first thing stolen, and then dropped into a deep ravine by a kea when it realised it wasn't worth eating * Kea love sliding down a frosted back-country hut's roof. Which sucks if you're trying to get some sleep in it at the time

subhro 6y ago

Probably going to get lots of downvote for this comment, but I am going to take it on my chin and not use a throwaway account. I hope that whackadoodle rancher starves to death if not dead already. I will take that as a positive outcome of COVID-19.

StevePerkins 6y ago
Sometimes, "I'm probably going to get downvoted for this! But..." is an effective reverse-psychology ploy. Which leads to upvotes for the "unpopular" opinion, that many if not most people actually share. Other times, the comment really is awful, and genuinely deserves to be downvoted away.

Gustomaximus 6y ago

> until such time vat grown meat makes ranching meat a premium product. I suspect farmed meat will be able to reduce price significantly to demand. Reason is much of the price is based on the land values. Also feed, but that can be reduced with stocking rates as land value drops. And given much grazing land isn't useful for other formats of farming, I suspect in the future were going to see significant drops to cattle grazing land values allowing it to stay price competitive to lab meat as that scales up. On the other hand the moral argument is hard to win, and I say that as a meat eater. I suspect justifying eating farmed meat is going to seriously dwindle in a few generations once the 'that's how its always been' mentality has softened.

dtech 6y ago
> I suspect justifying eating farmed meat is going to seriously dwindle in a few generations once the 'that's how its always been' mentality has softened. It will start more seriously once lab/vat grown-meat becomes a viable competitor. Suddenly it won't be "necessary" anymore to eat animals and ethics will rapidly shift. I don't think it's a coincidence societies view on slavery shifted at the same time as the industrial revolution made pure mechanical human labor less valuable, and that opinions on the legality in the US states roughly was determined whether that state's economics was dependent on slave labor or not.
- markstos 6y ago
  No need to wait for for "clean meat" as an excuse, it's already not necessary to eat animals.
  - dtech 6y ago
    It is not necessary in the same way that it is not necessary to drink alcohol or watch Netflix. People still want to do it. This makes killing animals an economic necessity to supply a large amount of demand. That will only change with lab grown meat or indistinguishable-from-the-real-thing meat replacements.

SanchoPanda 6y ago

BLM management does seem to have improved in other areas, thinking of their interactions with the third largest city in Nevada each year for the week before labor day.

EdwardDiego 6y ago

> This one yahoo purposefully sabotaged the coalition's efforts. Unfortunately this is always the way. In my country it's the farmer who still shoots kea[1] for predating his sheep, despite their protected status (and their being here first) and the fact that proper livestock management would prevent that - they typically only predate sheep that are snowbound, and a good farmer doesn't leave his sheep in the high country when snow's forecast. Or it's the hunters who transport deer species that have a negative impact on native plants to new areas for their hunting opportunities, or just to stick it to the man - I have no direct link for this, but entire truckloads of Sika deer have been intercepted trying to cross the strait between our North and South islands - Sika deer are well-established in the North Island (Te Ika-a-Maui/The Fish of Maui) but non-existent in the South Island (Te Wai Pounamu/The Waters of Greenstone(Nephrite Jade)), yet deer transporter trucks filled with Sika have been stopped trying to board the ferry. Which I don't get, plenty of red, fallow, and white-tail deer in the South Island. Likewise, there's been a spread of fallow deer over the country - typically they don't spread that far naturally, but from the 12 original herds introduced, there's been, shall we say, a continual leakage to other areas of the country. And of course, perhaps, ecologically more relevant, is the deliberate introduction of Bennett's wallabies from the relatively small area of the South Island they were originally released in, to areas in the North Island. They have a significant impact, and speaking frankly as a hunter, they're a bit shit, so I don't really understand why anyone would bother other than to be contrary. [1]: http://nzbirdsonline.org.nz/species/kea http://nzbirdsonline.org.nz/species/kea and also https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/native-animals/birds/birds-a-z/kea/ https://www.doc.govt.nz/nature/native-animals/birds/birds-a-... with special highlights: * A kea learnt to turn on the water tap at Aspiring Hut campground. * A kea locked a mountaineer inside the toilet at Mueller Hut. * A kea learnt to use tools to set off stoat traps to get the eggs. * A kea was seen having a tug-of-war with a cat over a rabbit carcass. * A kea that was being attacked by magpies hid behind a tramper who fended them off. To which I'd add: * I thought my flatmate was tipping out my cylindrical ashtray I kept outside as a passive-aggressive way of telling me to quit smoking. Turns out, two kea were tipping it on its side to kick between them like a football * I once had to counsel a German hiker whose boots, pack, and tent were systematically dismantled by a gang of young male kea when he was camped on a high alpine pass, he fled barefoot with his belongings in his arms * An older kea had figured out he had enough time when someone went into the local tearooms to run in and grab a chocolate bar and exit before the self-closing door closed. Until one day they moved the chocolate (on account of the kea thefts) and he was trapped in the tearooms and flew around screeching merrily to everyone's horror * Gangs of young male kea used to hang out by the toilets in town and dare each other on to make a car's tyres make that "psssssh" sound - which often resulted in people with two flat tyres on one side seeking assistance * When working in the visitor centre I handled three complaints about kea stealing passports at a popular photo site. There was a common modus operandi - one kea would jump around and act cute for the camera, while their buddies snuck up behind the distracted tourist and rifled through their belongings. Passports, on account of often having a shiny coat of arms, were often the first thing stolen, and then dropped into a deep ravine by a kea when it realised it wasn't worth eating * Kea love sliding down a frosted back-country hut's roof. Which sucks if you're trying to get some sleep in it at the time