6 ms·

Cops Tap Smart Streetlights Sparking Controversy and Legislation

30 points by sohkamyung 6y ago

noodlesUK 6y ago
It sounds to me like intrinsic concerns aside, the original process for acquiring footage seemed reasonable. It’s not really any different from if the police asked for CCTV records from a local business or similar. A huge problem was the creation of a streamlined request portal where cops could just ask for whatever they wanted, with little oversight. I’m increasingly curious what a model for a society where voluntary compliance with production of business records wasn’t acceptable, and any request for records had to come with a real warrant, signed by a real judge.
- xhkkffbf 6y ago
  It's possible to add more and more constraints on what the police can do when collecting evidence, but it can often have the opposite effect. The judges become overburdened by the multiplying requests and they start to rubberstamp things.
- eie7eu3hrruur 6y ago
  The reasonableness isn't the issue. San Diego has a few groups criticizing these cameras and if you read between the lines and look at what neighborhoods and communities they're advocating for it's obvious that the real concern is that the system will work and catch criminals in high crime neighborhoods.
huffmsa 6y ago
> half a terabyte of memory 512gb ssd in each street light?
- arielm 6y ago
  I had the same thought. They say memory, but it’s unlikely they mean RAM here. 512gb of SSD should fit 5 days x 2 HD cameras @ 30fps, so I’m pretty sure that’s what they mean.
  - huffmsa 6y ago
    I thought RAM too, but that'd be overkill even for a workstation I'd try to slip past the purchasing dept. Though the rest of the article makes it sound like they're streaming it to a central server, so that's a pretty beefy local buffer. I guess it'd be appropriate for a local fallback if the network connection was dropped. Shouldn't take more than 5 days to get back up.
- sharken 6y ago
  The reporters strength is not tech it seems, it is indeed a 512 GB hard drive that is part of the system. Additionally it has a range of detectors, even a Gunshot detector. Source http://www.smartercity.tech/smart-pole-node/ http://www.smartercity.tech/smart-pole-node/
wil421 6y ago
They did something similar with power poles in the city I used to live in. The power company came up with cameras they would mount to read license plates. If a car went by with a stolen license plate the cops would get an alert. In the first month they recovered more stolen cars than the previous year combined.
- pluto9 6y ago
  While this may be a reasonable use case (though personally I might dispute that), what's to stop them from using the same system to fine everybody with expired registration? One crime is obviously more serious than the other, but how serious must a crime be to warrant the use of mass surveillance as an enforcement tool? Where does one draw the line?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - DarthGhandi 6y ago
    Isn't that a problem with the law/punishment if enforcement is too effective?
loriverkutya 6y ago
Just following the general rule, if it can be used for surveillance, it will be sooner or later, because there is always a crime which justifies the surveillance.
pluto9 6y ago
> “There was an expectation when we launched this that it was not a law-enforcement system, Says Erik Caldwell, deputy chief operating officer for the City of San Diego. “That’s true; that’s not the primary purpose,” he adds. “The primary purpose is to gather data to better run the city.” The doublespeak is comical.
sharken 6y ago
It looks like the API is open to the public although it looks like that access is currently closed, source: https://www.sandiego.gov/sustainability/energy-and-water-efficiency/programs-projects/smart-city https://www.sandiego.gov/sustainability/energy-and-water-eff... Found some perhaps outdated info on setting up Python with the API. I wonder if camera data is accessible with the public API. Source: https://developer.here.com/blog/how-to-render-a-map-of-san-diegos-smart-city-initiative-with-here-xyz-and-tangram https://developer.here.com/blog/how-to-render-a-map-of-san-d...

30 points by sohkamyung 6y ago

It sounds to me like intrinsic concerns aside, the original process for acquiring footage seemed reasonable. It’s not really any different from if the police asked for CCTV records from a local business or similar. A huge problem was the creation of a streamlined request portal where cops could just ask for whatever they wanted, with little oversight. I’m increasingly curious what a model for a society where voluntary compliance with production of business records wasn’t acceptable, and any request for records had to come with a real warrant, signed by a real judge.

xhkkffbf 6y ago
It's possible to add more and more constraints on what the police can do when collecting evidence, but it can often have the opposite effect. The judges become overburdened by the multiplying requests and they start to rubberstamp things.
eie7eu3hrruur 6y ago
The reasonableness isn't the issue. San Diego has a few groups criticizing these cameras and if you read between the lines and look at what neighborhoods and communities they're advocating for it's obvious that the real concern is that the system will work and catch criminals in high crime neighborhoods.

huffmsa 6y ago

> half a terabyte of memory 512gb ssd in each street light?

arielm 6y ago
I had the same thought. They say memory, but it’s unlikely they mean RAM here. 512gb of SSD should fit 5 days x 2 HD cameras @ 30fps, so I’m pretty sure that’s what they mean.
- huffmsa 6y ago
  I thought RAM too, but that'd be overkill even for a workstation I'd try to slip past the purchasing dept. Though the rest of the article makes it sound like they're streaming it to a central server, so that's a pretty beefy local buffer. I guess it'd be appropriate for a local fallback if the network connection was dropped. Shouldn't take more than 5 days to get back up.
sharken 6y ago
The reporters strength is not tech it seems, it is indeed a 512 GB hard drive that is part of the system. Additionally it has a range of detectors, even a Gunshot detector. Source http://www.smartercity.tech/smart-pole-node/ http://www.smartercity.tech/smart-pole-node/

wil421 6y ago

They did something similar with power poles in the city I used to live in. The power company came up with cameras they would mount to read license plates. If a car went by with a stolen license plate the cops would get an alert. In the first month they recovered more stolen cars than the previous year combined.

pluto9 6y ago
While this may be a reasonable use case (though personally I might dispute that), what's to stop them from using the same system to fine everybody with expired registration? One crime is obviously more serious than the other, but how serious must a crime be to warrant the use of mass surveillance as an enforcement tool? Where does one draw the line?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- DarthGhandi 6y ago
  Isn't that a problem with the law/punishment if enforcement is too effective?

loriverkutya 6y ago

Just following the general rule, if it can be used for surveillance, it will be sooner or later, because there is always a crime which justifies the surveillance.

pluto9 6y ago

> “There was an expectation when we launched this that it was not a law-enforcement system, Says Erik Caldwell, deputy chief operating officer for the City of San Diego. “That’s true; that’s not the primary purpose,” he adds. “The primary purpose is to gather data to better run the city.” The doublespeak is comical.

sharken 6y ago

It looks like the API is open to the public although it looks like that access is currently closed, source: https://www.sandiego.gov/sustainability/energy-and-water-efficiency/programs-projects/smart-city https://www.sandiego.gov/sustainability/energy-and-water-eff... Found some perhaps outdated info on setting up Python with the API. I wonder if camera data is accessible with the public API. Source: https://developer.here.com/blog/how-to-render-a-map-of-san-diegos-smart-city-initiative-with-here-xyz-and-tangram https://developer.here.com/blog/how-to-render-a-map-of-san-d...