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Related: can anyone explain why there are still no n95 masks available? It seems like, a few months in, it's surprising that there are none available for non-m

Related: can anyone explain why there are still no n95 masks available? It seems like, a few months in, it's surprising that there are none available for non-medical buyers. Is this perception wrong?

Larrikin 6y ago
There is no unified approach to the virus and states and are fighting each other for the little supply there is
tarikjn 6y ago
I think price-gouging laws could also have something to do with this. Suppliers have increased their prices in what is essentially protracted inflation from demand. But in most states retailers are not legally allowed to increase price tags which was triggered in March when most states entered a state of emergency/declared disaster [1]. So the results is that retailers have to stop stocking these or they lose money; and the increased demand doesn't fully reach suppliers which means that in turn, manufacturers have also less incentives to increase production. [1] https://www.natlawreview.com/article/price-gouging-laws-and-overlapping-states-emergency https://www.natlawreview.com/article/price-gouging-laws-and-...
- mistrial9 6y ago
  Please clarify ".. So the results is that retailers have to stop stocking these or they lose money .. "
  - tarikjn 6y ago
    Citing from https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/accounting/price-gouging-laws-by-state/ https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/accounting/price-gougin... > New York's Consumer Protection Law prohibits price gouging during an emergency: What is considered price gouging: 10% or more price increase. When price gouging laws apply: During an emergency. Products or services the law applies to: Necessities. Say your gross margins on said masks were 50%, you paid $1 per mask and sold them $1.50 plus tax. Now the same branded masks are $2-3 from the supplier and you cannot legally sell them without losing money.
    - deleted 6y ago
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  - dillonmckay 6y ago
    The market rate for a single N95 mask in the US is approx. $18.
noelsusman 6y ago
They're not widely available to non-medical buyers because they're still not easily attainable for medical buyers. N95s aren't the easiest thing to manufacturer, so ramping up production to fully satisfy current demand would require a significant investment in time and capital. Companies aren't going to do that without some certainty that they'll actually be able to sell enough of their extra production to cover the initial investment. Nobody has provided them that certainty, so they haven't made the investment. Instead they're (mostly) just maxing out production on whatever equipment they already have. I work for a hospital and have been heavily involved in our COVID-related supply chain efforts. Six months into this we are still struggling to find a reliable source of high quality N95s. Our standard suppliers are getting us 100-200 per day, but we're using 10 times that every day.
- Voliokis 6y ago
  I don't understand why governments haven't made the contracts and guarantees to ensure increased global production over the long-term (not just for Covid-19). We're going to need a much higher rate of production for years to come, yet everybody keeps thinking "Next month! It'll all be over next month!". I'm tired of this shit, and I'm tired of governments thinking so short-sightedly. The EU alone could make a huge difference in this area, but they're so unwilling to actually effect positive change in the world by using their position as a unified region.
  - dboreham 6y ago
    Because incompetence?
    - eecc 6y ago
      Or the competent were ousted for not aligning with the team strategy and lowering morale?
  - Someone 6y ago
    “but they're so unwilling to actually effect positive change in the world by using their position as a unified region” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regula..., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Subst... (Both examples of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect) Thing is: if the long term necessity for increased production of N95 masks were a no-brainer, companies would commit to building facilities. If governments subsidized producers, and it turns out we end up with more masks then we need, people would accuse them of wasting taxpayer money. Making that call is hard, as companies are ramping up production and articles such as the one being discussed could mean much fewer masks are needed. Also, it seems at least Germany is working on this. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe-masks/europes-scramble-for-face-masks-prompts-longer-term-rethink-idUSKCN21Y131 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe...: “Germany has said it will foot 30% of the investment bill for companies that manage to get production of the coveted filter fabric started before year-end”
birdyrooster 6y ago
Just have to spend $10/mask on ebay
- dillonmckay 6y ago
  $10 per mask seems reasonable in the current environment. I consistently see them priced for around $18 per mask. In March, I bought a 2-pack from Tractor Supply for $8. It took 2 months for me to receive a tactical gas mask, but it also has eye protection, and a variety of filter options.
dillonmckay 6y ago
You can get them, but they are about $18 each.
bsder 6y ago
> Related: can anyone explain why there are still no n95 masks available? 1) The US federal government hasn't stepped in and guaranteed a purchase order to the domestic manufacturers. Companies ramped up for SARS and almost went bust--they learned their lesson. No ramping up unless someone cuts a check. 2) N95 masks require a special type of melt blown material. This material requires high tech manufacturing machines which have long lead times (9-12 months). So, new machines to manufacture this melt blown material are probably just now actually getting installed into manufacturing lines.
dboreham 6y ago
Fwiw KN95 (Chinese standard) are available from Costco online for about $2.50 a piece. I assume Costco isn't selling fakes. They have ear loops so the fit isn't as tight as N95 masks and needs some fiddling.
- angry_octet 6y ago
  Why would you assume that?
  - angry_octet 6y ago
    Because multiple governments have found themselves with millions of dollars of fake/noncompliant masks, and last I checked, Costco doesn't have a mask testing facility.
- hatsunearu 6y ago
  KN94 is the Korean standard. They made their own because the need for a standard arose because of the dust that comes from China. Not sure what KN95 is.
  - taejo 6y ago
    KF94 is a Korean standard. KN95 is a Chinese standard.
reddothomme 6y ago
Interesting, are you based in the US? N95 masks are still readily available in Singapore and Taiwan.
sherbondy 6y ago
My wife has been selling NIOSH-approved KN95 [1] masks to folks in the US for the past few months. First she tried to supply them directly to hospitals but ran into a harrowing amount of red tape. Then she listed them on eBay but got banned for “price gouging” despite listing at a lower rate than many of the approved sellers. Now she’s just selling the remaining inventory directly, and completely deterred from trying anything like this again because of all of the obstacles through this process. Here’s her site FWIW ($128 for a box of 50, $2.56 unit price): https://www.wesupplyppe.com/product-page/KN95-2 https://www.wesupplyppe.com/product-page/KN95-2 [1] https://coronavirus.health.ok.gov/kn95s https://coronavirus.health.ok.gov/kn95s
- otterley 6y ago
  Are they really NIOSH approved? NIOSH doesn’t approve KN95 masks[1]. Also, I thought elastic straps have to go around the head instead of the ears to obtain approval. Can we see the approval certificate? [1] https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/usernotices/counterfeitResp.html https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/usernotices/counterfeitResp....
  - sherbondy 6y ago
    You are right, I was mistaken, sorry for the misinformation! They went though the NIOSH modified testing protocol, not the official approval process. They have been tested for respirator filter efficiency only and were found to exceed 99% filter efficiency: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/respirators/testing/results/MTT-2020-209.1_International_HenanFengzhihuang_HF-KN95-3_TestReport_Redacted-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/respirators/testing/results/... But they are explicitly not NIOSH approved and as mentioned have an ear loop design whereas seemingly all approved masks go around the head. Wish I could edit/remove the original posting.
seunosewa 6y ago
KN95 masks are comparable to n95 masks in their filtration efficiency and you can order them from online stores like Amazon. The continued scarcity of n95 masks in the US has to do with an incompetent/malicious federal government’s failure/refusal to incentivize massive local production of masks, and a constant increase in demand by hospitals because of the rising number of cases.
- tridentlead 6y ago
  The KN95 specification is comparable to the N95 specification. But KN95 masks as a class of real things are often not comparable to N95 masks.
- distances 6y ago
  With Amazon's reputation I would be extremely hesitant to order anything health related from them. I'd greatly prefer a store with clear supply lines and no comingling.

Related: can anyone explain why there are still no n95 masks available? It seems like, a few months in, it's surprising that there are none available for non-medical buyers. Is this perception wrong?

Larrikin 6y ago

There is no unified approach to the virus and states and are fighting each other for the little supply there is

tarikjn 6y ago

I think price-gouging laws could also have something to do with this. Suppliers have increased their prices in what is essentially protracted inflation from demand. But in most states retailers are not legally allowed to increase price tags which was triggered in March when most states entered a state of emergency/declared disaster [1]. So the results is that retailers have to stop stocking these or they lose money; and the increased demand doesn't fully reach suppliers which means that in turn, manufacturers have also less incentives to increase production. [1] https://www.natlawreview.com/article/price-gouging-laws-and-overlapping-states-emergency https://www.natlawreview.com/article/price-gouging-laws-and-...

mistrial9 6y ago
Please clarify ".. So the results is that retailers have to stop stocking these or they lose money .. "
- tarikjn 6y ago
  Citing from https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/accounting/price-gouging-laws-by-state/ https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/accounting/price-gougin... > New York's Consumer Protection Law prohibits price gouging during an emergency: What is considered price gouging: 10% or more price increase. When price gouging laws apply: During an emergency. Products or services the law applies to: Necessities. Say your gross margins on said masks were 50%, you paid $1 per mask and sold them $1.50 plus tax. Now the same branded masks are $2-3 from the supplier and you cannot legally sell them without losing money.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dillonmckay 6y ago
  The market rate for a single N95 mask in the US is approx. $18.

noelsusman 6y ago

They're not widely available to non-medical buyers because they're still not easily attainable for medical buyers. N95s aren't the easiest thing to manufacturer, so ramping up production to fully satisfy current demand would require a significant investment in time and capital. Companies aren't going to do that without some certainty that they'll actually be able to sell enough of their extra production to cover the initial investment. Nobody has provided them that certainty, so they haven't made the investment. Instead they're (mostly) just maxing out production on whatever equipment they already have. I work for a hospital and have been heavily involved in our COVID-related supply chain efforts. Six months into this we are still struggling to find a reliable source of high quality N95s. Our standard suppliers are getting us 100-200 per day, but we're using 10 times that every day.

Voliokis 6y ago
I don't understand why governments haven't made the contracts and guarantees to ensure increased global production over the long-term (not just for Covid-19). We're going to need a much higher rate of production for years to come, yet everybody keeps thinking "Next month! It'll all be over next month!". I'm tired of this shit, and I'm tired of governments thinking so short-sightedly. The EU alone could make a huge difference in this area, but they're so unwilling to actually effect positive change in the world by using their position as a unified region.
- dboreham 6y ago
  Because incompetence?
  - eecc 6y ago
    Or the competent were ousted for not aligning with the team strategy and lowering morale?
- Someone 6y ago
  “but they're so unwilling to actually effect positive change in the world by using their position as a unified region” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Data_Protection_Regula..., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Subst... (Both examples of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_effect) Thing is: if the long term necessity for increased production of N95 masks were a no-brainer, companies would commit to building facilities. If governments subsidized producers, and it turns out we end up with more masks then we need, people would accuse them of wasting taxpayer money. Making that call is hard, as companies are ramping up production and articles such as the one being discussed could mean much fewer masks are needed. Also, it seems at least Germany is working on this. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe-masks/europes-scramble-for-face-masks-prompts-longer-term-rethink-idUSKCN21Y131 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-europe...: “Germany has said it will foot 30% of the investment bill for companies that manage to get production of the coveted filter fabric started before year-end”

birdyrooster 6y ago

Just have to spend $10/mask on ebay

dillonmckay 6y ago
$10 per mask seems reasonable in the current environment. I consistently see them priced for around $18 per mask. In March, I bought a 2-pack from Tractor Supply for $8. It took 2 months for me to receive a tactical gas mask, but it also has eye protection, and a variety of filter options.

dillonmckay 6y ago

You can get them, but they are about $18 each.

bsder 6y ago

> Related: can anyone explain why there are still no n95 masks available? 1) The US federal government hasn't stepped in and guaranteed a purchase order to the domestic manufacturers. Companies ramped up for SARS and almost went bust--they learned their lesson. No ramping up unless someone cuts a check. 2) N95 masks require a special type of melt blown material. This material requires high tech manufacturing machines which have long lead times (9-12 months). So, new machines to manufacture this melt blown material are probably just now actually getting installed into manufacturing lines.

dboreham 6y ago

Fwiw KN95 (Chinese standard) are available from Costco online for about $2.50 a piece. I assume Costco isn't selling fakes. They have ear loops so the fit isn't as tight as N95 masks and needs some fiddling.

angry_octet 6y ago
Why would you assume that?
- angry_octet 6y ago
  Because multiple governments have found themselves with millions of dollars of fake/noncompliant masks, and last I checked, Costco doesn't have a mask testing facility.
hatsunearu 6y ago
KN94 is the Korean standard. They made their own because the need for a standard arose because of the dust that comes from China. Not sure what KN95 is.
- taejo 6y ago
  KF94 is a Korean standard. KN95 is a Chinese standard.

reddothomme 6y ago

Interesting, are you based in the US? N95 masks are still readily available in Singapore and Taiwan.

sherbondy 6y ago

My wife has been selling NIOSH-approved KN95 [1] masks to folks in the US for the past few months. First she tried to supply them directly to hospitals but ran into a harrowing amount of red tape. Then she listed them on eBay but got banned for “price gouging” despite listing at a lower rate than many of the approved sellers. Now she’s just selling the remaining inventory directly, and completely deterred from trying anything like this again because of all of the obstacles through this process. Here’s her site FWIW ($128 for a box of 50, $2.56 unit price): https://www.wesupplyppe.com/product-page/KN95-2 https://www.wesupplyppe.com/product-page/KN95-2 [1] https://coronavirus.health.ok.gov/kn95s https://coronavirus.health.ok.gov/kn95s

otterley 6y ago
Are they really NIOSH approved? NIOSH doesn’t approve KN95 masks[1]. Also, I thought elastic straps have to go around the head instead of the ears to obtain approval. Can we see the approval certificate? [1] https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/usernotices/counterfeitResp.html https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/usernotices/counterfeitResp....
- sherbondy 6y ago
  You are right, I was mistaken, sorry for the misinformation! They went though the NIOSH modified testing protocol, not the official approval process. They have been tested for respirator filter efficiency only and were found to exceed 99% filter efficiency: https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/respirators/testing/results/MTT-2020-209.1_International_HenanFengzhihuang_HF-KN95-3_TestReport_Redacted-508.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/respirators/testing/results/... But they are explicitly not NIOSH approved and as mentioned have an ear loop design whereas seemingly all approved masks go around the head. Wish I could edit/remove the original posting.

seunosewa 6y ago

KN95 masks are comparable to n95 masks in their filtration efficiency and you can order them from online stores like Amazon. The continued scarcity of n95 masks in the US has to do with an incompetent/malicious federal government’s failure/refusal to incentivize massive local production of masks, and a constant increase in demand by hospitals because of the rising number of cases.

tridentlead 6y ago
The KN95 specification is comparable to the N95 specification. But KN95 masks as a class of real things are often not comparable to N95 masks.
distances 6y ago
With Amazon's reputation I would be extremely hesitant to order anything health related from them. I'd greatly prefer a store with clear supply lines and no comingling.