11 ms·

I have never had an iOS device in my life, but these three paragraphs provide probably the most convincing reason to finally make the switch: > A billion or mo

by krn 6y ago

I have never had an iOS device in my life, but these three paragraphs provide probably the most convincing reason to finally make the switch: > A billion or more Android devices are vulnerable to hacks that can turn them into spying tools by exploiting more than 400 vulnerabilities in Qualcomm’s Snapdragon chip, researchers reported this week. > The vulnerabilities can be exploited when a target downloads a video or other content that’s rendered by the chip. Targets can also be attacked by installing malicious apps that require no permissions at all. > From there, attackers can monitor locations and listen to nearby audio in real time and exfiltrate photos and videos. Exploits also make it possible to render the phone completely unresponsive. Infections can be hidden from the operating system in a way that makes disinfecting difficult.

slipheen 6y ago
I like Apples devices, but aren't they just as vulnerable to CPU bugs? There's plenty of good reasons to use an iOS device (and some good reasons to avoid one), but I wouldn't think that CPU bug would be a particularly strong reason on either side.
- GeekyBear 6y ago
  Bugs can be discovered anywhere. The question is whether those bugs will be patched. The original iPhone SE is about to start it's sixth year of OS updates and security patches. Which works out to less than $70 per supported year. That's a legitimate advantage over the Android ecosystem.
  - darksaints 6y ago
    In my personal experience, the sole reason for those updates is to cripple your hardware and battery life in order for you to upgrade to newer hardware.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      In my experience, my iPhone 6 is perfectly usable, as is an old SE and 6S Plus. Batteries degrade, and after being replaced they work fine. And they’re still getting updates this year.
      - Xylakant 6y ago
        I can second this. I’m hanging on to my SE for the form factor and it’s still going strong. My wife’s SE is nearing a battery replacement after what feels like half a decade of usage. I dread the day the SE will no longer be supported. Typing this on an iPhone SE
      - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
        >Batteries degrade, and after being replaced they work fine. If the batteries were user replaceable, it would have been a perfect story. Sending the device back to the manufacturer (authorised service center) can be inconvenience(data formatting, TOTP apps etc.) at best to security breach(malware install, device imaging etc.) at worst. Also, if indeed a user decides to replace the battery on their own, an iPhone is the least repairable phone out there and getting worse with every iteration.
        rstupek 6y ago
        The procedure to get an iphone battery replaced is to make an appointment at the apple store and they swap it out as you wait.
        jsheard 6y ago
        That's great if you live near an Apple Store, but only 25 countries have Apple Stores and half of those only have 1-3 stores for the whole country.
        saagarjha 6y ago
        Then you can go to an AASP.
    - christophilus 6y ago
      Typing this on a perfectly fast iPhone 6.
    - GeekyBear 6y ago
      Refusing to fix bugs and issue patches is much cheaper, if forcing obsolescence is your goal.
      - darksaints 6y ago
        The vast majority of security vulnerabilities and bugs that end users experience are fixed within the first few years of the device's shelf life. Security vulnerabilities tend to go unnoticed by most end users, and therefore don't really play a role in forcing users to upgrade. Wouldn't it be nice though if users could choose to patch security vulnerabilities without installing updates that deliberately slow down the phone?
        acdha 6y ago
        Do you have a citation supporting the claim that old bugs don’t affect users? That’s certainly not true in the Windows world. Similarly, “updates that deliberately slow down the phone” sounds like a conspiracy theory. The closest we’ve come to that being real would have required a caveat “… when your battery has degraded to the point that the phone would otherwise crash”, which is an important distinction.
        darksaints 6y ago
        It's pretty hard to fine a company that has one of the world's largest legal departments €25m based on a conspiracy theory. And no, that caveat isn't even close to the truth. Apple states that they do it "once the battery begins to degrade", which is so ambiguous that it could even apply to brand new batteries, because all batteries begin to degrade upon their first usage. In my case, I had a 9 month old iPhone 6 that drastically slowed down due to the update. When the apple store told me that it only slowed down phones with aging batteries, I asked them to replace my battery for my phone which was still under warranty. They "tested" it and told me my battery life was perfectly fine. Fuck that...have not and will not ever buy an apple product ever again.
        valuearb 6y ago
    - pdimitar 6y ago
      Guess you didn't read the articles explaining that reduced performance on phones with heavily amortised batteries is to be expected. And didn't read the testimonials of people who paid for a new battery and got their device working fast again.
  - dongvsascript 6y ago
    and literally any 10 year old android phone can run not just the latest security patches but even the latest android. you are taking the iphone limitation of 'os must be from hardware manufacturer' and for some reason applying it to android phones. my 10 year old motorola nexus is running android 10 -which is the current version. you install the new os on android by downloading an app, which installs the new os on reboot. it takes 15 minutes, and gramma can do it. next you'll tell me mac laptops are better because you can't put windows 10 on your old hp laptop, because hp's system image for it only goes to windows 7.
    - whynotminot 6y ago
      Lol who's your gramma?
    - easton 6y ago
      Dang, I wish my grandma was a AOSP contributor. But most phones in the United States sold within the last decade had the bootloaders locked so you can’t install another rom even if you knew how to do it.
      - dongvsascript 6y ago
        this is simply false. very few phones have actually 'locked' bootloaders. as in, can't go into settings and uncheck 'locked' checkbox to unlock it. when they do, you can easily unlock it -usually by simply asking your service provider or the manufacturer. and the ones you can't -yes, you have to hack it with a usb cable and a computer. for like .05% of phones. and google's phones are not ever locked in any way, being the proper comparison, since you're comparing phones to apple. what we have here with the op is trump voter logic, so he can feel better about himself by creating a fake reality where he is king. 'mr trump, i'm saying death as %of population, not tested cases.' - 'well, you can't do that.' i got an old android, i'm gonna put the latest os on it. 'well, you can't do that.' no mr apple. you are the one who can't do that.
        fuzxi 6y ago
        HN is not for politics, and especially not for political shit-flinging.
- krn 6y ago
  I like Android One devices and the complete freedom of choice they provide me, but the likehood and the severity of CPU vulnerabilites seem to be much higher with Snapdragon chips. Also, the security patches arrive much slower to Android than to iOS devices. And I am especially concerned about ARM's TrustZone, which seems to be inferior to Apple's Secure Enclave.
  - esperent 6y ago
    This is the first exploit specific to snapdragon that I've ever heard of. Were there others?
    - krn 6y ago
      Multiple Kernel Vulnerabilities Affecting All Qualcomm Devices (2020) https://blog.zimperium.com/multiple-kernel-vulnerabilities-affecting-all-qualcomm-devices/ https://blog.zimperium.com/multiple-kernel-vulnerabilities-a... The Road to Qualcomm TrustZone Apps Fuzzing (2019) https://research.checkpoint.com/2019/the-road-to-qualcomm-trustzone-apps-fuzzing/ https://research.checkpoint.com/2019/the-road-to-qualcomm-tr... QualPwn - Exploiting Qualcomm WLAN and Modem Over The Air (2019) https://blade.tencent.com/en/advisories/qualpwn/ https://blade.tencent.com/en/advisories/qualpwn/ QuadRooter: New Android Vulnerabilities in Over 900 Million Devices (2016) https://blog.checkpoint.com/2016/08/07/quadrooter/ https://blog.checkpoint.com/2016/08/07/quadrooter/
      - fulafel 6y ago
        Those are software bugs thoughe except the WLAN one. But Apple has had same kind of WLAN firmware vulns. The software vulns demonstrate serious failures of the Qualcomm product package of course, and is only relevant from POV of how the fixes can be deployed.
- unloco 6y ago
  I'm sure there are, remember the bezos hack? Wasnt it a video from snapchat on iphone or something? But mostly the ones coming from Apple seem to be physical access only. You can assume, as with any personal computing device, once it's in someone else's hands, your data is as good as theirs. Some make it more difficult than others. But 400 remote access vulnerabilities is a completely different ball game.
lebaux 6y ago
There is no specific information available about the nature of the vulnerabilities or possible mitigation. Arstechnica.com is sensationalizing the news, when it comes to security I would rely on actual sec researchers. https://blog.checkpoint.com/2020/08/06/achilles-small-chip-big-peril/ https://blog.checkpoint.com/2020/08/06/achilles-small-chip-b...
- acdha 6y ago
  I’m not sure what your point was: that’s the same article Ars linked, with the same message and no additional information because, as the Ars writer noted, they’re withholding details until the vendors fix it.
  - afrcnc 6y ago
    No. He's saying that without the technical details, Ars is overblowing this issue. Maybe exploitation requires radio gear of $5k and being present next to the victim while their BLE is turned on. Without the details, you can't say if this is a big issue or just another overhyped Check Point research paper, as this company has a history of doing.
    - spoopyskelly 6y ago
      The Ars article includes the CVEs.
      - aryonoco 6y ago
        The technical details are withheld for the time being until (presumably) systems are patched. The Ars article includes the CVEs, which is all the technical detail that's currently available.
    - acdha 6y ago
      That doesn’t make any sense: he said to trust the researchers, but Check Point is saying nothing different. If the theory was the different one you’re offering, the advice would be not to trust the researchers.
stefan_ 6y ago
Whats special here? Apple similarly had full remote kernel takeovers from vulnerabilities in e.g. a Broadcom WiFi chip. This isn't even making anything close to that claim, it seems more like a privilege escalation situation.
TwoBit 6y ago
There are currently so many vulnerabilities in Apple devices that their market value is rather low. Android exploits are currently worth more because they are harder to come by.
- vxNsr 6y ago
  Would you mind providing some info to back this up? Last I heard (2018) iOS vulns were going for $1mil+
  - danielheath 6y ago
    https://zerodium.com/program.html https://zerodium.com/program.html puts android marginally ahead right now. Shifts around over time, though.
rstuart4133 6y ago
I've just read the ARS article and comments, but it's a bug in the DSP library call Hexagon that somehow allows you to screw with the libraries being used. Apple uses Hexagon too. I continually see these comments that security in Android is crap or Apple is so much better. Right now I find it hard to pick the difference between the two. There is almost none in terms of blow me away "how the fuck can we stop continually doing this to ourselves" type exploits - like the drive by total takeover of iOS China was using to target Uighurs. That is as bad as it gets, and both Android and Apple have had their share. There is a superficial difference in how tightly they curate their app stores. Obviously, iTunes is better policed, but hyper vigilant police always inject their own opinions into what is allowed and isn't. Some people are happy to forgo a little functionality for peace of mind. But since both iOS and Android provide guaranteed to work (if there are no bloody bugs this week) [Uninstall] button, and both have been known and delete apps they've taking a disliking to without asking or informing you, security wise the outcome is is pretty similar regardless of the app store policy.

by krn 6y ago

slipheen 6y ago

I like Apples devices, but aren't they just as vulnerable to CPU bugs? There's plenty of good reasons to use an iOS device (and some good reasons to avoid one), but I wouldn't think that CPU bug would be a particularly strong reason on either side.

GeekyBear 6y ago
Bugs can be discovered anywhere. The question is whether those bugs will be patched. The original iPhone SE is about to start it's sixth year of OS updates and security patches. Which works out to less than $70 per supported year. That's a legitimate advantage over the Android ecosystem.
- darksaints 6y ago
  In my personal experience, the sole reason for those updates is to cripple your hardware and battery life in order for you to upgrade to newer hardware.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    In my experience, my iPhone 6 is perfectly usable, as is an old SE and 6S Plus. Batteries degrade, and after being replaced they work fine. And they’re still getting updates this year.
    - Xylakant 6y ago
      I can second this. I’m hanging on to my SE for the form factor and it’s still going strong. My wife’s SE is nearing a battery replacement after what feels like half a decade of usage. I dread the day the SE will no longer be supported. Typing this on an iPhone SE
    - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
      >Batteries degrade, and after being replaced they work fine. If the batteries were user replaceable, it would have been a perfect story. Sending the device back to the manufacturer (authorised service center) can be inconvenience(data formatting, TOTP apps etc.) at best to security breach(malware install, device imaging etc.) at worst. Also, if indeed a user decides to replace the battery on their own, an iPhone is the least repairable phone out there and getting worse with every iteration.
      - rstupek 6y ago
        The procedure to get an iphone battery replaced is to make an appointment at the apple store and they swap it out as you wait.
        jsheard 6y ago
        That's great if you live near an Apple Store, but only 25 countries have Apple Stores and half of those only have 1-3 stores for the whole country.
        saagarjha 6y ago
        Then you can go to an AASP.
  - christophilus 6y ago
    Typing this on a perfectly fast iPhone 6.
  - GeekyBear 6y ago
    Refusing to fix bugs and issue patches is much cheaper, if forcing obsolescence is your goal.
    - darksaints 6y ago
      The vast majority of security vulnerabilities and bugs that end users experience are fixed within the first few years of the device's shelf life. Security vulnerabilities tend to go unnoticed by most end users, and therefore don't really play a role in forcing users to upgrade. Wouldn't it be nice though if users could choose to patch security vulnerabilities without installing updates that deliberately slow down the phone?
      - acdha 6y ago
        Do you have a citation supporting the claim that old bugs don’t affect users? That’s certainly not true in the Windows world. Similarly, “updates that deliberately slow down the phone” sounds like a conspiracy theory. The closest we’ve come to that being real would have required a caveat “… when your battery has degraded to the point that the phone would otherwise crash”, which is an important distinction.
        darksaints 6y ago
        It's pretty hard to fine a company that has one of the world's largest legal departments €25m based on a conspiracy theory. And no, that caveat isn't even close to the truth. Apple states that they do it "once the battery begins to degrade", which is so ambiguous that it could even apply to brand new batteries, because all batteries begin to degrade upon their first usage. In my case, I had a 9 month old iPhone 6 that drastically slowed down due to the update. When the apple store told me that it only slowed down phones with aging batteries, I asked them to replace my battery for my phone which was still under warranty. They "tested" it and told me my battery life was perfectly fine. Fuck that...have not and will not ever buy an apple product ever again.
        valuearb 6y ago
  - pdimitar 6y ago
    Guess you didn't read the articles explaining that reduced performance on phones with heavily amortised batteries is to be expected. And didn't read the testimonials of people who paid for a new battery and got their device working fast again.
- dongvsascript 6y ago
  and literally any 10 year old android phone can run not just the latest security patches but even the latest android. you are taking the iphone limitation of 'os must be from hardware manufacturer' and for some reason applying it to android phones. my 10 year old motorola nexus is running android 10 -which is the current version. you install the new os on android by downloading an app, which installs the new os on reboot. it takes 15 minutes, and gramma can do it. next you'll tell me mac laptops are better because you can't put windows 10 on your old hp laptop, because hp's system image for it only goes to windows 7.
  - whynotminot 6y ago
    Lol who's your gramma?
  - easton 6y ago
    Dang, I wish my grandma was a AOSP contributor. But most phones in the United States sold within the last decade had the bootloaders locked so you can’t install another rom even if you knew how to do it.
    - dongvsascript 6y ago
      this is simply false. very few phones have actually 'locked' bootloaders. as in, can't go into settings and uncheck 'locked' checkbox to unlock it. when they do, you can easily unlock it -usually by simply asking your service provider or the manufacturer. and the ones you can't -yes, you have to hack it with a usb cable and a computer. for like .05% of phones. and google's phones are not ever locked in any way, being the proper comparison, since you're comparing phones to apple. what we have here with the op is trump voter logic, so he can feel better about himself by creating a fake reality where he is king. 'mr trump, i'm saying death as %of population, not tested cases.' - 'well, you can't do that.' i got an old android, i'm gonna put the latest os on it. 'well, you can't do that.' no mr apple. you are the one who can't do that.
      - fuzxi 6y ago
        HN is not for politics, and especially not for political shit-flinging.
krn 6y ago
I like Android One devices and the complete freedom of choice they provide me, but the likehood and the severity of CPU vulnerabilites seem to be much higher with Snapdragon chips. Also, the security patches arrive much slower to Android than to iOS devices. And I am especially concerned about ARM's TrustZone, which seems to be inferior to Apple's Secure Enclave.
- esperent 6y ago
  This is the first exploit specific to snapdragon that I've ever heard of. Were there others?
  - krn 6y ago
    Multiple Kernel Vulnerabilities Affecting All Qualcomm Devices (2020) https://blog.zimperium.com/multiple-kernel-vulnerabilities-affecting-all-qualcomm-devices/ https://blog.zimperium.com/multiple-kernel-vulnerabilities-a... The Road to Qualcomm TrustZone Apps Fuzzing (2019) https://research.checkpoint.com/2019/the-road-to-qualcomm-trustzone-apps-fuzzing/ https://research.checkpoint.com/2019/the-road-to-qualcomm-tr... QualPwn - Exploiting Qualcomm WLAN and Modem Over The Air (2019) https://blade.tencent.com/en/advisories/qualpwn/ https://blade.tencent.com/en/advisories/qualpwn/ QuadRooter: New Android Vulnerabilities in Over 900 Million Devices (2016) https://blog.checkpoint.com/2016/08/07/quadrooter/ https://blog.checkpoint.com/2016/08/07/quadrooter/
    - fulafel 6y ago
      Those are software bugs thoughe except the WLAN one. But Apple has had same kind of WLAN firmware vulns. The software vulns demonstrate serious failures of the Qualcomm product package of course, and is only relevant from POV of how the fixes can be deployed.
unloco 6y ago
I'm sure there are, remember the bezos hack? Wasnt it a video from snapchat on iphone or something? But mostly the ones coming from Apple seem to be physical access only. You can assume, as with any personal computing device, once it's in someone else's hands, your data is as good as theirs. Some make it more difficult than others. But 400 remote access vulnerabilities is a completely different ball game.

lebaux 6y ago

There is no specific information available about the nature of the vulnerabilities or possible mitigation. Arstechnica.com is sensationalizing the news, when it comes to security I would rely on actual sec researchers. https://blog.checkpoint.com/2020/08/06/achilles-small-chip-big-peril/ https://blog.checkpoint.com/2020/08/06/achilles-small-chip-b...

acdha 6y ago
I’m not sure what your point was: that’s the same article Ars linked, with the same message and no additional information because, as the Ars writer noted, they’re withholding details until the vendors fix it.
- afrcnc 6y ago
  No. He's saying that without the technical details, Ars is overblowing this issue. Maybe exploitation requires radio gear of $5k and being present next to the victim while their BLE is turned on. Without the details, you can't say if this is a big issue or just another overhyped Check Point research paper, as this company has a history of doing.
  - spoopyskelly 6y ago
    The Ars article includes the CVEs.
    - aryonoco 6y ago
      The technical details are withheld for the time being until (presumably) systems are patched. The Ars article includes the CVEs, which is all the technical detail that's currently available.
  - acdha 6y ago
    That doesn’t make any sense: he said to trust the researchers, but Check Point is saying nothing different. If the theory was the different one you’re offering, the advice would be not to trust the researchers.

stefan_ 6y ago

Whats special here? Apple similarly had full remote kernel takeovers from vulnerabilities in e.g. a Broadcom WiFi chip. This isn't even making anything close to that claim, it seems more like a privilege escalation situation.

TwoBit 6y ago

There are currently so many vulnerabilities in Apple devices that their market value is rather low. Android exploits are currently worth more because they are harder to come by.

vxNsr 6y ago
Would you mind providing some info to back this up? Last I heard (2018) iOS vulns were going for $1mil+
- danielheath 6y ago
  https://zerodium.com/program.html https://zerodium.com/program.html puts android marginally ahead right now. Shifts around over time, though.

rstuart4133 6y ago

I've just read the ARS article and comments, but it's a bug in the DSP library call Hexagon that somehow allows you to screw with the libraries being used. Apple uses Hexagon too. I continually see these comments that security in Android is crap or Apple is so much better. Right now I find it hard to pick the difference between the two. There is almost none in terms of blow me away "how the fuck can we stop continually doing this to ourselves" type exploits - like the drive by total takeover of iOS China was using to target Uighurs. That is as bad as it gets, and both Android and Apple have had their share. There is a superficial difference in how tightly they curate their app stores. Obviously, iTunes is better policed, but hyper vigilant police always inject their own opinions into what is allowed and isn't. Some people are happy to forgo a little functionality for peace of mind. But since both iOS and Android provide guaranteed to work (if there are no bloody bugs this week) [Uninstall] button, and both have been known and delete apps they've taking a disliking to without asking or informing you, security wise the outcome is is pretty similar regardless of the app store policy.