6 ms·

How covert is staring at someone’s shoes trying to identify slight variations?

by ferros 6y ago

StefanKarpinski 6y ago
Take a picture, it will last longer
searchableguy 6y ago
I sometimes wonder if FBI and other agencies release fake information so we all look out for them rather than their actual secret methods.
- jmnicolas 6y ago
  True story : I was devastated to learn that eating carrots for enhancing night vision was a WWII British hoax to confuse the Germans. I spent the better part of my teenage years eating raw carrots to be a better Ninja!
  - LeoPanthera 6y ago
    That's true! To be more specific, the British had just invented the ground interception radar to spot incoming aircraft, and didn't want the Germans to think they had developed a technological solution. I don't know if they ever thought the myth would catch on as well as it did, but it's still widely believed today. (Perhaps because there's no downside, eating carrots is still good for you, it just doesn't improve your eyesight.)
    - ThePadawan 6y ago
      Additionally, sugar was also heavily rationed, while carrots (which are quite high in sugars) IIRC weren't. Carrot cake also had a surge in popularity at the time (if the great show "Supersizers eat..." is to believed).
      - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
        Huh. Didn't know. Proof http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/ww2carrots.html http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/ww2carrots.html
  - ahmedfromtunis 6y ago
    > Decades later rumors swirled that the British Royal Air Force pushed that message as a cover-up for the recently adopted radar technology they were secretly relying on for their nighttime skirmishes. > whilst the [British] Air Ministry were happy to go along with the story [of carrot-improved vision], they never set out to use it to fool the Germans. > The German intelligence service were well aware of our ground-based radar installation and would not be surprised by the existence of radar in aircraft. In fact, the RAF were able to confirm the existence of German airborne radar simply by fitting commercial radios into a bomber and flying over France listening to the various radio frequencies! Link: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-carrots-improve-your-vision/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-c... I wasn't however able to find if there is any reason for the british to push such a message if it wasn't to confuse the germans.
    - messe 6y ago
      > I wasn't however able to find if there is any reason for the british to push such a message if it wasn't to confuse the germans. Could it have had something to do with rationing? Perhaps they were trying to increase carrot consumption.
      - ahmedfromtunis 6y ago
        Yep, that's what I thought too, but had no way of confirming it. It can also be that they wanted citizens to cultivate more of it in their home gardens for its nutritional values. But either way, I have no data to confirm it.
        saalweachter 6y ago
        Hell, it could have been a stupid reason. Maybe someone actually thought carrots improved vision; maybe someone just thought it was hilarious to make people thinks that; maybe someone needed another poster to make to meet quota and ran out of ideas; maybe someone had a bet on whether they could get a carrot campaign approved.
  - kbenson 6y ago
    You and me both! I mean, I like carrots, so I was eating them as a snack (my preferred method was to get a full carrot, eat around the core, and then eat the sweet core by itself), but I remember thinking whenever I got one "I wonder how much this will end up helping my vision" some day.
- c3534l 6y ago
  They absolutely do. And they might release very good information along with a carefully planted piece of terrible advice. So you might see a tutorial about how to send drugs through the mail that is 99% good advice, and one piece of intentionally bad advice that police officers are currently watching extra carefully. You don't have to get very high up in government to see examples of people planting false information to lead people astray about how things really work.
almondgold 6y ago
Probably knew which variations to look for on top of looking for slight hints, while trying to show a lacking sign of confidence by looking down.
elliekelly 6y ago
If you scroll down to the "CIA Lacing Gallery" you can see that on men's dress shoes the different lacing techniques would be pretty obvious with a quick glance. The laces are either - or X Direct link to one of the photos: https://www.fieggen.com/Dont_Link/CIALacing1a.jpg https://www.fieggen.com/Dont_Link/CIALacing1a.jpg
- jmnicolas 6y ago
  It depends where it happens : if it's a sitting meeting yes it would look strange. But in the street do you even look at passing people shoelaces ?
  - pc86 6y ago
    If you're a spy and one of your assets is passing you a message, then of course you would. And if that's not the case, you're probably not looking at other people's shoelaces - which is the entire point.
function_seven 6y ago
Well, don't stare at them. You know in advance that your contact will be walking down Merriweather Lane at 11:30am. If his shoes sport a single "X" near the bottom, that means the dead drop has the microfilm ready for pickup. If it doesn't have that "X", then try again next Tuesday. If you see two X's in his lacing, the package is at the alternate drop site. If he has 3 X patterns, you're burned! Make your way to the safehouse after losing any potential tails. Glance quickly, agent, and keep moving.
- ferros 6y ago
  Thanks for explaining like this. It seems from the downvotes to my comment most people don’t see it as a valid question.
  - NetOpWibby 6y ago
    Par for the course here. Glad your question was answered, I was curious as well.
- stordoff 6y ago
  This setup reminds me of operation PIMLICO: > Every Tuesday, shortly after 7:00, a British MI6 officer would take a morning stroll at the Kutuzovsky Prospekt in Moscow. He would pass outside a designated bakery at exactly 7:24 a.m. local time. If he saw Gordievsky standing outside the bakery holding a grocery bag, it meant that the double agent was requesting to be exfiltrated as a matter of urgency. Gordievsky would then have to wait outside the bakery until a second MI6 officer appeared, carrying a bag from the Harrods luxury department store in London. The man would also be carrying a Mars bar (a popular British candy bar) and would bite into it while passing right in front of Gordievsky. That would be a message to him that his request to be exfiltrated had been received. https://intelnews.org/tag/operation-pimlico/ https://intelnews.org/tag/operation-pimlico/
  - TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
    This seems either unlikely or questionably competent. Gordievsky was well known to the KGB and loitering pointlessly outside a bakery would only have aroused suspicions - which would have been confirmed by the second agent, because anyone carrying a Harrods bag in Soviet Moscow would have stood out like a very obvious person of interest.
chrismeller 6y ago
You’ve clearly never been in the Eastern European countries. Eye contact is... iffy. There is an old joke. How do you tell an extroverted Estonian from an introverted Estonian? He stares at your shoes, not his own. There are (at least now) plenty of “extroverted” Estonians, but I’ve heard dozens and dozens of stories of the “don’t make eye contact, just keep walking” variety during the USSR. Also, staring at either party’s shoes may mean their own smartphone these days...
- aasasd 6y ago
  Well, there's the answer for whether Estonia is a Nordic country. For the reference: https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aj6MYgw_700b_v1.jpg https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aj6MYgw_700b_v1.jpg https://external-preview.redd.it/UMjBaFaE-dFYMu_VZ8nKO4_tj0EbXLB-phHKqdFzQa8.jpg?auto=webp&s=d2451be14aeee2cbd00404ba456293b61ae36313 https://external-preview.redd.it/UMjBaFaE-dFYMu_VZ8nKO4_tj0E... http://www.linkbcit.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Finland-bus-stop.jpg http://www.linkbcit.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Finland-bu...
  - pantalaimon 6y ago
    Those images are much more commonplace these days
  - koziserek 6y ago
    They perfected social distancing before it was cool.
sandworm101 6y ago
>> someone’s shoes trying to identify slight variations? If you have a military background it is completely normal. Beyond boot polishing, how one ties one's shoes can identify their nationality, background and even trade. They don't think twice about looking at someone's shoes. There is an old method for spotting a US marine: Ask them to change their socks. The guy who takes one sock off at a time, changing one sock before even untying the second shoe, that's a probable marine. The guy who doesn't actually tie his laces, that does a strange wrap-around-then-tuck thing... US army. The guy who skips a few holes in the middle: air force. Think I am exaggerating? search youtube for military shoe tying vids: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=military+shoe+laces https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=military+shoe+l...
- NautilusWave 6y ago
  Well that sounds like a very specific scene.
- aasasd 6y ago
  In fact, Ian's Shoelace website mentions several lacing and tying methods used and prescribed in the military of different countries.
- cbsks 6y ago
  > The guy who doesn't actually tie his laces, that does a strange wrap-around-then-tuck thing... US army. That’s this lacing technique: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/commando-lacing.htm https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/commando-lacing.htm

How covert is staring at someone’s shoes trying to identify slight variations?

by ferros 6y ago

How covert is staring at someone’s shoes trying to identify slight variations?

StefanKarpinski 6y ago

Take a picture, it will last longer

searchableguy 6y ago

I sometimes wonder if FBI and other agencies release fake information so we all look out for them rather than their actual secret methods.

jmnicolas 6y ago
True story : I was devastated to learn that eating carrots for enhancing night vision was a WWII British hoax to confuse the Germans. I spent the better part of my teenage years eating raw carrots to be a better Ninja!
- LeoPanthera 6y ago
  That's true! To be more specific, the British had just invented the ground interception radar to spot incoming aircraft, and didn't want the Germans to think they had developed a technological solution. I don't know if they ever thought the myth would catch on as well as it did, but it's still widely believed today. (Perhaps because there's no downside, eating carrots is still good for you, it just doesn't improve your eyesight.)
  - ThePadawan 6y ago
    Additionally, sugar was also heavily rationed, while carrots (which are quite high in sugars) IIRC weren't. Carrot cake also had a surge in popularity at the time (if the great show "Supersizers eat..." is to believed).
    - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
      Huh. Didn't know. Proof http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/ww2carrots.html http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/ww2carrots.html
- ahmedfromtunis 6y ago
  > Decades later rumors swirled that the British Royal Air Force pushed that message as a cover-up for the recently adopted radar technology they were secretly relying on for their nighttime skirmishes. > whilst the [British] Air Ministry were happy to go along with the story [of carrot-improved vision], they never set out to use it to fool the Germans. > The German intelligence service were well aware of our ground-based radar installation and would not be surprised by the existence of radar in aircraft. In fact, the RAF were able to confirm the existence of German airborne radar simply by fitting commercial radios into a bomber and flying over France listening to the various radio frequencies! Link: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-carrots-improve-your-vision/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fact-or-fiction-c... I wasn't however able to find if there is any reason for the british to push such a message if it wasn't to confuse the germans.
  - messe 6y ago
    > I wasn't however able to find if there is any reason for the british to push such a message if it wasn't to confuse the germans. Could it have had something to do with rationing? Perhaps they were trying to increase carrot consumption.
    - ahmedfromtunis 6y ago
      Yep, that's what I thought too, but had no way of confirming it. It can also be that they wanted citizens to cultivate more of it in their home gardens for its nutritional values. But either way, I have no data to confirm it.
      - saalweachter 6y ago
        Hell, it could have been a stupid reason. Maybe someone actually thought carrots improved vision; maybe someone just thought it was hilarious to make people thinks that; maybe someone needed another poster to make to meet quota and ran out of ideas; maybe someone had a bet on whether they could get a carrot campaign approved.
- kbenson 6y ago
  You and me both! I mean, I like carrots, so I was eating them as a snack (my preferred method was to get a full carrot, eat around the core, and then eat the sweet core by itself), but I remember thinking whenever I got one "I wonder how much this will end up helping my vision" some day.
c3534l 6y ago
They absolutely do. And they might release very good information along with a carefully planted piece of terrible advice. So you might see a tutorial about how to send drugs through the mail that is 99% good advice, and one piece of intentionally bad advice that police officers are currently watching extra carefully. You don't have to get very high up in government to see examples of people planting false information to lead people astray about how things really work.

almondgold 6y ago

Probably knew which variations to look for on top of looking for slight hints, while trying to show a lacking sign of confidence by looking down.

elliekelly 6y ago

If you scroll down to the "CIA Lacing Gallery" you can see that on men's dress shoes the different lacing techniques would be pretty obvious with a quick glance. The laces are either - or X Direct link to one of the photos: https://www.fieggen.com/Dont_Link/CIALacing1a.jpg https://www.fieggen.com/Dont_Link/CIALacing1a.jpg

jmnicolas 6y ago
It depends where it happens : if it's a sitting meeting yes it would look strange. But in the street do you even look at passing people shoelaces ?
- pc86 6y ago
  If you're a spy and one of your assets is passing you a message, then of course you would. And if that's not the case, you're probably not looking at other people's shoelaces - which is the entire point.

function_seven 6y ago

Well, don't stare at them. You know in advance that your contact will be walking down Merriweather Lane at 11:30am. If his shoes sport a single "X" near the bottom, that means the dead drop has the microfilm ready for pickup. If it doesn't have that "X", then try again next Tuesday. If you see two X's in his lacing, the package is at the alternate drop site. If he has 3 X patterns, you're burned! Make your way to the safehouse after losing any potential tails. Glance quickly, agent, and keep moving.

ferros 6y ago
Thanks for explaining like this. It seems from the downvotes to my comment most people don’t see it as a valid question.
- NetOpWibby 6y ago
  Par for the course here. Glad your question was answered, I was curious as well.
stordoff 6y ago
This setup reminds me of operation PIMLICO: > Every Tuesday, shortly after 7:00, a British MI6 officer would take a morning stroll at the Kutuzovsky Prospekt in Moscow. He would pass outside a designated bakery at exactly 7:24 a.m. local time. If he saw Gordievsky standing outside the bakery holding a grocery bag, it meant that the double agent was requesting to be exfiltrated as a matter of urgency. Gordievsky would then have to wait outside the bakery until a second MI6 officer appeared, carrying a bag from the Harrods luxury department store in London. The man would also be carrying a Mars bar (a popular British candy bar) and would bite into it while passing right in front of Gordievsky. That would be a message to him that his request to be exfiltrated had been received. https://intelnews.org/tag/operation-pimlico/ https://intelnews.org/tag/operation-pimlico/
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  This seems either unlikely or questionably competent. Gordievsky was well known to the KGB and loitering pointlessly outside a bakery would only have aroused suspicions - which would have been confirmed by the second agent, because anyone carrying a Harrods bag in Soviet Moscow would have stood out like a very obvious person of interest.

chrismeller 6y ago

You’ve clearly never been in the Eastern European countries. Eye contact is... iffy. There is an old joke. How do you tell an extroverted Estonian from an introverted Estonian? He stares at your shoes, not his own. There are (at least now) plenty of “extroverted” Estonians, but I’ve heard dozens and dozens of stories of the “don’t make eye contact, just keep walking” variety during the USSR. Also, staring at either party’s shoes may mean their own smartphone these days...

aasasd 6y ago
Well, there's the answer for whether Estonia is a Nordic country. For the reference: https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aj6MYgw_700b_v1.jpg https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/aj6MYgw_700b_v1.jpg https://external-preview.redd.it/UMjBaFaE-dFYMu_VZ8nKO4_tj0EbXLB-phHKqdFzQa8.jpg?auto=webp&s=d2451be14aeee2cbd00404ba456293b61ae36313 https://external-preview.redd.it/UMjBaFaE-dFYMu_VZ8nKO4_tj0E... http://www.linkbcit.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Finland-bus-stop.jpg http://www.linkbcit.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Finland-bu...
- pantalaimon 6y ago
  Those images are much more commonplace these days
- koziserek 6y ago
  They perfected social distancing before it was cool.

sandworm101 6y ago

>> someone’s shoes trying to identify slight variations? If you have a military background it is completely normal. Beyond boot polishing, how one ties one's shoes can identify their nationality, background and even trade. They don't think twice about looking at someone's shoes. There is an old method for spotting a US marine: Ask them to change their socks. The guy who takes one sock off at a time, changing one sock before even untying the second shoe, that's a probable marine. The guy who doesn't actually tie his laces, that does a strange wrap-around-then-tuck thing... US army. The guy who skips a few holes in the middle: air force. Think I am exaggerating? search youtube for military shoe tying vids: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=military+shoe+laces https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=military+shoe+l...

NautilusWave 6y ago
Well that sounds like a very specific scene.
aasasd 6y ago
In fact, Ian's Shoelace website mentions several lacing and tying methods used and prescribed in the military of different countries.
cbsks 6y ago
> The guy who doesn't actually tie his laces, that does a strange wrap-around-then-tuck thing... US army. That’s this lacing technique: https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/commando-lacing.htm https://www.fieggen.com/shoelace/commando-lacing.htm