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> the movie is really about the negatives of extreme, prolonged toxic masculinity Chuck Palahniuk, the author of the book the movie is based on would disagree

> the movie is really about the negatives of extreme, prolonged toxic masculinity Chuck Palahniuk, the author of the book the movie is based on would disagree with you. For one, he has said he doesn't believe in the term toxic masculinity. He has said that Fight Club is "about empowering the individual and allowing the individual to make what they see as the best choice" and "about the terror that you were going to live or die without understanding anything important about yourself". He has also remarked about how few cultural narratives there are for young men today, "I feel a little frustrated that our culture hasn’t given these men a wider selection of narratives to choose from. Really, the only narratives they go to are The Matrix and Fight Club". As for the snowflake term being co-opted, he says, "once that material passes on to an audience, the audience adopts it. It will become the child of the audience and will serve whatever purpose the audience has for it. It would be insane to think that the author could control every iteration or every interpretation of their work." For me, Fight Club was a very nihilistic (Chuck Palahniuk admits to being somewhat of a nihilist) and also very hopeful book (and movie), which is a tough combination to pull off.

throwaway092837 6y ago
>> the movie is really about the negatives of extreme, prolonged toxic masculinity > Chuck Palahniuk, the author of the book the movie is based on would disagree with you. Palahniuk: “Throughout childhood, people tell you to be less sensitive. Adulthood begins the moment someone tells you that you need to be more sensitive.” > For one, he has said he doesn't believe in the term toxic masculinity. He criticized the term, for being poorly defined, not the concept: https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/a-conversation-with-chuck-palahniuk-the-author-of-fight-club-and-the-man-behind-tyler-durden-2 https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/a-conversation-with-chuc... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fight-club-2-chuck-palahniuk_n_5845c35ae4b028b32338a632 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fight-club-2-chuck-palahniuk_...
- juniper_strong 6y ago
  I'm not sure how either of those support your point about the term toxic masculinity. I claimed, "he has said he doesn't believe in the term toxic masculinity". In your first link, he is asked, "We hear the term “toxic masculinity” a lot these days. As someone who writes a lot about manhood, what does it mean to you?". He answers, "Oh boy, I’m not sure if I really believe in it". Sounds to me like he doesn't believe in the term toxic masculinity. In your Huffington Post link, the interviewer claims "It’s a book about consumerism, and an expressive, violent response to the cold fact of it. It’s also a book about toxic masculinity, even if its author never deigns to expressly critique or uphold controlled violence". I don't know why we would consider the interviewer the authority on the text in question here. Here is Palahniuk's take in the same interview: Q: Would you say Fight Club is more of a critique of violent masculinity, a celebration of it, or both? A: Boy. I wouldn’t say it’s a critique. I think that because it’s consensual, it’s OK. It’s a mutually agreed-upon thing which people can discover their ability to sustain violence or survive violence as well as their ability to inflict it. So, in a way, it’s kind of a mutually agreed-upon therapy. I don’t see it as condoning violence ― because in the story it is consensual ― or as ridiculing it, because in this case it does have a use. Thanks for the HuffPo link though, here is another quote where he gives what he thinks the message of Fight Club is that seems to be in agreement with the other ones I read, "The central message of Fight Club was always about the empowerment of the individual through small, escalating challenges". It also has this quote about killing the father, "In a way, it’s like everyone rebelling against dad, and discovering their own power by killing the father, as the Buddhists would say". I've seen interpretations of Fight Club as a Buddhist allegory (https://web.archive.org/web/20090423020258/http://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/vol11no2/ReedFightClub.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20090423020258/http://www.unomah...), interesting to hear him bring that up.
  - throwaway092837 6y ago
    As I said "He criticized the term, for being poorly defined, not the concept". >We hear the term “toxic masculinity” a lot these days. As someone who writes a lot about manhood, what does it mean to you? >Oh boy, I’m not sure if I really believe in it. >Why? >It seems like a label put on a certain type of behavior from the outside. It’s just such a vague term that it’s hard to address.
    - juniper_strong 6y ago
      So he doesn't believe in the term toxic masculinity. What is the argument you are making here, exactly?

throwaway092837 6y ago

>> the movie is really about the negatives of extreme, prolonged toxic masculinity > Chuck Palahniuk, the author of the book the movie is based on would disagree with you. Palahniuk: “Throughout childhood, people tell you to be less sensitive. Adulthood begins the moment someone tells you that you need to be more sensitive.” > For one, he has said he doesn't believe in the term toxic masculinity. He criticized the term, for being poorly defined, not the concept: https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/a-conversation-with-chuck-palahniuk-the-author-of-fight-club-and-the-man-behind-tyler-durden-2 https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/a-conversation-with-chuc... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fight-club-2-chuck-palahniuk_n_5845c35ae4b028b32338a632 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fight-club-2-chuck-palahniuk_...

juniper_strong 6y ago
I'm not sure how either of those support your point about the term toxic masculinity. I claimed, "he has said he doesn't believe in the term toxic masculinity". In your first link, he is asked, "We hear the term “toxic masculinity” a lot these days. As someone who writes a lot about manhood, what does it mean to you?". He answers, "Oh boy, I’m not sure if I really believe in it". Sounds to me like he doesn't believe in the term toxic masculinity. In your Huffington Post link, the interviewer claims "It’s a book about consumerism, and an expressive, violent response to the cold fact of it. It’s also a book about toxic masculinity, even if its author never deigns to expressly critique or uphold controlled violence". I don't know why we would consider the interviewer the authority on the text in question here. Here is Palahniuk's take in the same interview: Q: Would you say Fight Club is more of a critique of violent masculinity, a celebration of it, or both? A: Boy. I wouldn’t say it’s a critique. I think that because it’s consensual, it’s OK. It’s a mutually agreed-upon thing which people can discover their ability to sustain violence or survive violence as well as their ability to inflict it. So, in a way, it’s kind of a mutually agreed-upon therapy. I don’t see it as condoning violence ― because in the story it is consensual ― or as ridiculing it, because in this case it does have a use. Thanks for the HuffPo link though, here is another quote where he gives what he thinks the message of Fight Club is that seems to be in agreement with the other ones I read, "The central message of Fight Club was always about the empowerment of the individual through small, escalating challenges". It also has this quote about killing the father, "In a way, it’s like everyone rebelling against dad, and discovering their own power by killing the father, as the Buddhists would say". I've seen interpretations of Fight Club as a Buddhist allegory (https://web.archive.org/web/20090423020258/http://www.unomaha.edu/jrf/vol11no2/ReedFightClub.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20090423020258/http://www.unomah...), interesting to hear him bring that up.
- throwaway092837 6y ago
  As I said "He criticized the term, for being poorly defined, not the concept". >We hear the term “toxic masculinity” a lot these days. As someone who writes a lot about manhood, what does it mean to you? >Oh boy, I’m not sure if I really believe in it. >Why? >It seems like a label put on a certain type of behavior from the outside. It’s just such a vague term that it’s hard to address.
  - juniper_strong 6y ago
    So he doesn't believe in the term toxic masculinity. What is the argument you are making here, exactly?