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Look, if the marketing for oatly just focused entirely and explicitly on the cruelty of the dairy industry that they are competing against, they would never be

Look, if the marketing for oatly just focused entirely and explicitly on the cruelty of the dairy industry that they are competing against, they would never be a successful alternative to dairy because most consumers don’t respond positively to being exposed to graphic, disturbing, and negative information about competitors on product packaging. If anything it makes consumers want to look away, reach for humor to trivialize the issues, or rationalize away any role they choose to play in the cruelty. “Made for humans” here really doesn’t mean anything other than “not being taken from calves” except phrased in a more positive way. This isn’t about “natural” versus “artificial” as it is about making choices which are less ethically fraught, but vegans are hated by the large majority of the rest of us because we don’t care for others explicitly or implicitly condemning us for our lack of ethical integrity when we choose convenience and comfort over doing less harm.

itsoktocry 6y ago
>the cruelty of the dairy industry that they are competing against I have first-hand knowledge of "the dairy industry". I don't see cruelty. Can you fill me on what's cruel about it?
- hnarn 6y ago
  Cruelty is subjective, so I'll play the vegan's advocate here since I'm not vegan myself: Dairy cows are forcibly inseminated and then used for their milk way beyond the time period they normally would produce milk. In many parts of the world they are kept in conditions which are cruel, and they may also suffer physically from this treatment (infections etc). In essence, dairy animals are treated like machines rather than animals and very little concern is given to their well being rather than their profitability. Morality is, as always, subjective, but from a vegan perspective, this is unnecessary and cruel exploitation. I'd also like to add that most vegans are not magically averse to meat or dairy as a product: they are mostly concerned with the industrial complex of producing animal products. I think most vegans would have no, or at least a lot less, problems with dairy production if it happened in a way where cows were treated very well and did not suffer in any way from having their milk taken (which would make milk prohibitively expensive, I assume).
  - seanwilson 6y ago
    > I think most vegans would have no, or at least a lot less, problems with dairy production if it happened in a way where cows were treated very well What are you going to do with the cows after 5 years into their 20 year life span when they stop producing as much milk? I can't see any way you're going to make people against animal slaughter happy with the only practical option.
    - hnarn 6y ago
      If you're going to approach every animal life as a profit calculation, completely ignoring the moral argument made by vegans, obviously the answer will always be what you expect it to be. There's no point in having an honest discussion if you phrase every question from your own assumptions of morality and practicality instead of asking open questions. Also, I'm not a vegan so I'm not going to debate you on this.
distances 6y ago
> vegans are hated by the large majority of the rest of us This a very weird claim. I know some fringe groups like ridiculing vegans, but I find it very hard to believe that a majority of people would have a negative view towards veganism.

itsoktocry 6y ago

>the cruelty of the dairy industry that they are competing against I have first-hand knowledge of "the dairy industry". I don't see cruelty. Can you fill me on what's cruel about it?

hnarn 6y ago
Cruelty is subjective, so I'll play the vegan's advocate here since I'm not vegan myself: Dairy cows are forcibly inseminated and then used for their milk way beyond the time period they normally would produce milk. In many parts of the world they are kept in conditions which are cruel, and they may also suffer physically from this treatment (infections etc). In essence, dairy animals are treated like machines rather than animals and very little concern is given to their well being rather than their profitability. Morality is, as always, subjective, but from a vegan perspective, this is unnecessary and cruel exploitation. I'd also like to add that most vegans are not magically averse to meat or dairy as a product: they are mostly concerned with the industrial complex of producing animal products. I think most vegans would have no, or at least a lot less, problems with dairy production if it happened in a way where cows were treated very well and did not suffer in any way from having their milk taken (which would make milk prohibitively expensive, I assume).
- seanwilson 6y ago
  > I think most vegans would have no, or at least a lot less, problems with dairy production if it happened in a way where cows were treated very well What are you going to do with the cows after 5 years into their 20 year life span when they stop producing as much milk? I can't see any way you're going to make people against animal slaughter happy with the only practical option.
  - hnarn 6y ago
    If you're going to approach every animal life as a profit calculation, completely ignoring the moral argument made by vegans, obviously the answer will always be what you expect it to be. There's no point in having an honest discussion if you phrase every question from your own assumptions of morality and practicality instead of asking open questions. Also, I'm not a vegan so I'm not going to debate you on this.

distances 6y ago

> vegans are hated by the large majority of the rest of us This a very weird claim. I know some fringe groups like ridiculing vegans, but I find it very hard to believe that a majority of people would have a negative view towards veganism.