5 ms·

The Gandhi Nobody Knows (1983)

66 points by asciilifeform 16y ago

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
joelburget 16y ago
It's of course tempting for storytellers to make their characters one-dimensional. In this case the makers of the movie decided to portray a singularly good and humanitarian Gandhi. Usually we see purely good or purely bad characters and know they are good or bad because the movie tells us. We usually don't know why characters are bad, other than the fact that they're fighting against the main character, so they must be. The problem is this makes for boring characters. I love it when I see more complex characters and their motivations. I know that's not exactly the Gandhi the movie makers wanted to portray, but maybe it would have made for a better story.
vnorby 16y ago
"Gandhi was erratic,irrational, tyrannical, obstinate. He sometimes verged on lunacy. He believed in a religion whose ideas I find somewhat repugnant. He worshipped cows." That line from the article is ridiculous. Anyway, it is not an original idea to claim that Gandhi was a puppet of the British Government, an opportunist, etc. by Western AND Indian thinkers. Yes, the Indian Government has, in many ways, manufactured his character, as the article claims. Most Indians are aware of that. However, establishing hero figures is not different than what many countries, religions, and other "imaginary communities" have done to move past horrific injustices like Britain's brutal occupation of India. This article serves no beneficial purpose but to restate: history is written by the victors.
- thaumaturgy 16y ago
  Yep. Just try and tell a conservative American what kind of person Christopher Columbus really was, or that Washington nearly got all of his men and himself captured or killed and was saved only by a freak fog one night.
pstack 16y ago
If there's one thing you don't do, it's offer any criticism of Mother Theresa, no matter what information there is in the world about her outside of the perpetuated religious and media portrayal of her to the masses. If there's a second thing you don't do, it's offer any criticism of Ghandi. People cling so irrationally to the persona that have been drilled into their head throughout their entire life that offering any insight or raising any contradictory perspectives on certain characters draws the same response you'd get if you went up to a devout religious person and started asking about their crazy mythology. That is, you encounter a brick-wall that only spouts that you are wrong, because (instead of The Bible Says So) "she was a saint" or "he was a pacifist". And that's as far as you'll get. People who have no investment or interest in either person will be highly offended that you would dare make any assertions. Hyped figures perpetuated by media and society are destined to be remembered this way for eternity and any contradictions -- no matter how scholarly -- will always be categorized as hateful. Oh, if there's a third thing you don't do, it's offer any criticism of Nelson Mandela. Oh, and if there's a fourth thing you don't do, it's offer any criticism of Che Guevara.
- araneae 16y ago
  5th: Dalai Lama Well, unless it's to the Chinese. Then you can't compliment him.
  - warrenwilkinson 16y ago
    The other day I was pondering if non-violent resistance really would help the Tibetans. If Gandhi's revolution really wasn't non-violent (and the transition was already well underway), that doesn't leave many cases where non-violence worked.
- OstiaAntica 16y ago
  Che Guevara was Stalinist murderer who ran a gulag. Those are facts, not a criticism. http://www.slate.com/id/2107100/ http://www.slate.com/id/2107100/ http://reason.tv/video/show/killer-chic http://reason.tv/video/show/killer-chic
ezy 16y ago
Wow, that was... crazy. A slightly less frothing at the mouth response: http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/38b451bdbfbefb61 http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/38b451... The OP article had me going, because it was partially correct about the film being a hagiography. But it went quickly into looney-land about half way through. If you look up the author and his other writings, you'll realize why.
- gnosis 16y ago
  "The strongest words, however, have come from Richard Grenier, film critic for 'Commentary'. Not satisfied with simply attacking the movie and the man, Grenier in a March article for the magazine went on to vilify all of India, all of Hinduism, and then to flail at a target closer to home, and close to the hearts of his fellow neoconservatives: American liberals. Grenier's 13,000-word tirade was widely reprinted and subsequently released as a book dedicated to Norman Podhoretz and Midge Deeter." No wonder.
- bdhe 16y ago
  > The OP article had me going, because it was partially correct about the film being a hagiography. I think the idea and principles that Gandhi stood for are nevertheless important just as the ideas and principles the Founding Fathers of the US had in mind when framing the constitution are considered important. The details of Gandhi's life are slightly less important. Also, people fail to realize the context behind a lot of Gandhi's misgivings. It was a different era (which is no excuse) but even Abraham Lincoln wasn't of the opinion that blacks are equals and the Founding Fathers owned slaves themselves. The lesson is to take their stories with a pinch of salt, but nevertheless feel motivated and inspired by the goals and ideals these famous people represented, not the minutiae of their actual lives.
  - pstack 16y ago
    I think the more valuable lesson is that you don't need to white-wash history to paint a figure as better than they were (especially if they were not particularly good at all in some cases), simply to uphold the value of the things we associate with them. Society doesn't have to confuse the two. A worthy idea or concept can stand on its own, even if we uncover unpleasant truths about the people involved.
aaronbrethorst 16y ago
Apologies if this was posted recently. I couldn't find it in a cursory search via searchyc.com: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/apr/28/different-gandhi/?pagination=false http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/apr/28/differe...
entangld 16y ago
I don't see the point in attacking the character of people who have accomplished great things. What does a person's private life have to do with their struggle against a government? Usually, not very much. It's just a more intellectual version of gossip rags. Just trying to tear down historical celebrities.
llambda 16y ago
I think there's some valid criticism of the film "Gandhi" to be had. However, an essay that insists on being flippant and glib through the repetitious use of terms like "Sir Dickie" (to describe Sir David Attenborough, used on ten occasions in the essay) is probably not it.
- shrikant 16y ago
  Nitpick: you mean Sir Richard Attenborough, who's the director of the movie. Sir David Attenborough is a naturalist.
Estragon 16y ago
I stopped reading at this point: > ...when Gandhi's wife lay dying of pneumonia and British doctors > insisted that a shot of penicillin would save her, Gandhi refused to > have this alien medicine injected in her body and simply let her die. True as far as it goes, but a near-slanderous distortion of what actually happened: To those who tried to bolster her sagging morale saying "You will get better soon," Kasturba would respond, "No, my time is up." Shortly after seven that evening, Devdas took Mohandas and the doctors aside. In what he would later describe as "the sweetest of all wrangles I ever had with my father," he pleaded fiercely that Ba be given the life saving medicine, even though the doctors told him her condition was beyond help. It was Mohandas, after learning that the penicillin had to be administered by injection every four to six hours, who finally persuaded his youngest son to give up the idea. "Why do you want to prolong your mother's agonies after all the suffering she has been through?" Gandhi asked. Then he said, "You can't cure her now, no matter what miracle drug you may muster. But if you insist, I will not stand in your way. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasturba_Gandhi) The OP's calumny is reminiscent of an earlier incident where Kasturba was ill, and doctors insisted that she needed to eat beef to get better. They asked his permission, and he said that he would not grant it, but that if she was in a position to indicate her wishes, she could choose for herself. http://www.gandhi-manibhavan.org/gandhicomesalive/chap01.htm http://www.gandhi-manibhavan.org/gandhicomesalive/chap01.htm If there is something actually interesting and historically verifiable elsewhere in this apparent hit job of an essay, I'd be grateful for a pointer, though. What is it with the recent campaign to slam Gandhi? (http://www.metafilter.com/101933/We-believe-as-much-in-the-purity-of-races-as-we-think-they-do http://www.metafilter.com/101933/We-believe-as-much-in-the-p...)
- techiferous 16y ago
  "What is it with the recent campaign to slam Gandhi?" Perhaps it's that, even with his flaws, Gandhi raises the bar really high. He reminds us that we have much more internal power and potential than we want to admit to ourselves and that we have a responsibility to others.
- akkartik 16y ago
  I'm not sure what version to trust on that particular story[1], but read on. It's more an attack on the movie (and an establishment's propaganda) than on the man. I'm Indian, and I grew up steeped in the legend of Gandhi. I've always had a close identification with him. His birthday is adjacent to mine, and I used to wear these round glasses as an adolescent. I say these things to show that I should dislike this essay. And yet I find myself unable to. It's a good, balanced, exquisitely written essay. And having read it and pondered it and enjoyed it I find my opinion of Gandhi hasn't materially changed. He had the hustle of an entrepreneur. "Gandhi was erratic, irrational, tyrannical, obstinate. He sometimes verged on lunacy. He believed in a religion whose ideas I find somewhat repugnant. He worshipped cows. But I will say this: he was brave. He feared no one." Even the attack on Hinduism is interesting (I assume that's the part http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2409364 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2409364 referred to as looney-land. I call it 'things you can't say'). It's cathartic to find that there's as much to criticize about Hinduism as about any of the other major religions, something I hadn't quite focused on until now. Perhaps I'm losing my roots. --- [1] http://www.hark.com/clips/fcxrvdvphc-who-cares http://www.hark.com/clips/fcxrvdvphc-who-cares, http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0068895 http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0068895
dman 16y ago
Why is this on HN?
- lolaspies 16y ago
  Because people with aspergers love to be nitpicking, soul-less jackasses. edit: lol, multiple downvotes within minutes. Haven't you aspies got better things to do, like say playing minecraft, or relentlessly arguing on some obscure forum that Shakespeare didn't write his works?
  - techiferous 16y ago
    HN should have a feature to flag entire profiles for deletion.
Joakal 16y ago
The Julian Assange Nobody Knows (2007) [0] [0] http://web.archive.org/web/20071020051936/http://iq.org/ http://web.archive.org/web/20071020051936/http://iq.org/
tumpak 16y ago
He is trying to say Gandhi is flawed and trying desperately to prove it. I celebrate any man with many flaws who goes on to create wonderful impact in the world. I don't think I learned much from the original post. I already knew Gandhi was flawed. That is why he was wonderful. Being a man with many flaws, he achieved what was thought impossible. This reaffirms that we each can change the world despite our own deep flaws. Critics like to find flaws in each detail and strip us all naked. Thats what the original post seemed to me.
- kedi_xed 16y ago
  I learned a lot. I don't think the article is of a high quality, but it has now broadened my viewpoint on Gandhi. I find it hard to believe in something with no faults. And it seems that human nature shows that the more adamant someone is in being pure and showing the world, the more a deeper darker side they seem to have. I hate it when people are portrayed as super human. Finding out about their weird quirks takes them down a peg..gando is just a bloke...
come_and_hear 16y ago
Fair enough. "[From the magazine, "Commentary," March 1983, published monthly by the American Jewish Committee, New York, NY.]" But this was a very 'robust' critique. Am I an "anti-semite" if I ask if the Commentary magazine would focus their sharp critical lens on Talmud ("dung") and "Saint Einstein"?
deepGem 16y ago
I think one should read the book 'My experiments with truth' before commenting on the Mahatma. The movie of course is bound to exaggerate things, which movie doesn't ? However, claiming that the Indian government and other 'national interests' twisted the movie's story in Gandhi's favor is quite ridiculous. http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/english/etext-project/biography/gandhi/ http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/english/etext-projec...
ajaimk 16y ago
One man's hero is another man's villain. Remember the "good stuff" about them, follow said "good stuff" and forget the not so "good stuff". If you don't have anything "good" to say, shut up and go about doing "good stuff" yourself.
- ajaimk 16y ago
  Do explain the down-votes when you make them.
BuddhaSource 16y ago
Lets keep it real, There is no perfect man! A man leaves behind his persona of what he believed or did. His karma is respected. There is always a down side to everyone, as for Gandhi he failed as a father & many more things. Accept it, this should not affect your believe for what he did which no one else could. I believe Steve Jobs for what he doing, I know he is not perfect. lol my 2cents :P
joelrunyon 16y ago
I'm always amazed at people's desire to disparage those who have had a positive impact on the world. Ghandi obviously wasn't perfect, but he did plenty of good things. It's easy to be a critic, but before you decide you need to criticize something, ask yourself "what good have I done lately?" Then shutup and get to work.
asciilifeform 16y ago
To the naysayers: What would you have to find out about this man to stop worshipping him? That he ate kittens? Or are the facts simply irrelevant?

66 points by asciilifeform 16y ago

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

It's of course tempting for storytellers to make their characters one-dimensional. In this case the makers of the movie decided to portray a singularly good and humanitarian Gandhi. Usually we see purely good or purely bad characters and know they are good or bad because the movie tells us. We usually don't know why characters are bad, other than the fact that they're fighting against the main character, so they must be. The problem is this makes for boring characters. I love it when I see more complex characters and their motivations. I know that's not exactly the Gandhi the movie makers wanted to portray, but maybe it would have made for a better story.

vnorby 16y ago

"Gandhi was erratic,irrational, tyrannical, obstinate. He sometimes verged on lunacy. He believed in a religion whose ideas I find somewhat repugnant. He worshipped cows." That line from the article is ridiculous. Anyway, it is not an original idea to claim that Gandhi was a puppet of the British Government, an opportunist, etc. by Western AND Indian thinkers. Yes, the Indian Government has, in many ways, manufactured his character, as the article claims. Most Indians are aware of that. However, establishing hero figures is not different than what many countries, religions, and other "imaginary communities" have done to move past horrific injustices like Britain's brutal occupation of India. This article serves no beneficial purpose but to restate: history is written by the victors.

thaumaturgy 16y ago
Yep. Just try and tell a conservative American what kind of person Christopher Columbus really was, or that Washington nearly got all of his men and himself captured or killed and was saved only by a freak fog one night.

pstack 16y ago

If there's one thing you don't do, it's offer any criticism of Mother Theresa, no matter what information there is in the world about her outside of the perpetuated religious and media portrayal of her to the masses. If there's a second thing you don't do, it's offer any criticism of Ghandi. People cling so irrationally to the persona that have been drilled into their head throughout their entire life that offering any insight or raising any contradictory perspectives on certain characters draws the same response you'd get if you went up to a devout religious person and started asking about their crazy mythology. That is, you encounter a brick-wall that only spouts that you are wrong, because (instead of The Bible Says So) "she was a saint" or "he was a pacifist". And that's as far as you'll get. People who have no investment or interest in either person will be highly offended that you would dare make any assertions. Hyped figures perpetuated by media and society are destined to be remembered this way for eternity and any contradictions -- no matter how scholarly -- will always be categorized as hateful. Oh, if there's a third thing you don't do, it's offer any criticism of Nelson Mandela. Oh, and if there's a fourth thing you don't do, it's offer any criticism of Che Guevara.

araneae 16y ago
5th: Dalai Lama Well, unless it's to the Chinese. Then you can't compliment him.
- warrenwilkinson 16y ago
  The other day I was pondering if non-violent resistance really would help the Tibetans. If Gandhi's revolution really wasn't non-violent (and the transition was already well underway), that doesn't leave many cases where non-violence worked.
OstiaAntica 16y ago
Che Guevara was Stalinist murderer who ran a gulag. Those are facts, not a criticism. http://www.slate.com/id/2107100/ http://www.slate.com/id/2107100/ http://reason.tv/video/show/killer-chic http://reason.tv/video/show/killer-chic

ezy 16y ago

Wow, that was... crazy. A slightly less frothing at the mouth response: http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/38b451bdbfbefb61 http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.indian/msg/38b451... The OP article had me going, because it was partially correct about the film being a hagiography. But it went quickly into looney-land about half way through. If you look up the author and his other writings, you'll realize why.

gnosis 16y ago
"The strongest words, however, have come from Richard Grenier, film critic for 'Commentary'. Not satisfied with simply attacking the movie and the man, Grenier in a March article for the magazine went on to vilify all of India, all of Hinduism, and then to flail at a target closer to home, and close to the hearts of his fellow neoconservatives: American liberals. Grenier's 13,000-word tirade was widely reprinted and subsequently released as a book dedicated to Norman Podhoretz and Midge Deeter." No wonder.
bdhe 16y ago
> The OP article had me going, because it was partially correct about the film being a hagiography. I think the idea and principles that Gandhi stood for are nevertheless important just as the ideas and principles the Founding Fathers of the US had in mind when framing the constitution are considered important. The details of Gandhi's life are slightly less important. Also, people fail to realize the context behind a lot of Gandhi's misgivings. It was a different era (which is no excuse) but even Abraham Lincoln wasn't of the opinion that blacks are equals and the Founding Fathers owned slaves themselves. The lesson is to take their stories with a pinch of salt, but nevertheless feel motivated and inspired by the goals and ideals these famous people represented, not the minutiae of their actual lives.
- pstack 16y ago
  I think the more valuable lesson is that you don't need to white-wash history to paint a figure as better than they were (especially if they were not particularly good at all in some cases), simply to uphold the value of the things we associate with them. Society doesn't have to confuse the two. A worthy idea or concept can stand on its own, even if we uncover unpleasant truths about the people involved.

aaronbrethorst 16y ago

Apologies if this was posted recently. I couldn't find it in a cursory search via searchyc.com: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/apr/28/different-gandhi/?pagination=false http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/apr/28/differe...

entangld 16y ago

I don't see the point in attacking the character of people who have accomplished great things. What does a person's private life have to do with their struggle against a government? Usually, not very much. It's just a more intellectual version of gossip rags. Just trying to tear down historical celebrities.

llambda 16y ago

I think there's some valid criticism of the film "Gandhi" to be had. However, an essay that insists on being flippant and glib through the repetitious use of terms like "Sir Dickie" (to describe Sir David Attenborough, used on ten occasions in the essay) is probably not it.

shrikant 16y ago
Nitpick: you mean Sir Richard Attenborough, who's the director of the movie. Sir David Attenborough is a naturalist.

Estragon 16y ago

I stopped reading at this point: > ...when Gandhi's wife lay dying of pneumonia and British doctors > insisted that a shot of penicillin would save her, Gandhi refused to > have this alien medicine injected in her body and simply let her die. True as far as it goes, but a near-slanderous distortion of what actually happened: To those who tried to bolster her sagging morale saying "You will get better soon," Kasturba would respond, "No, my time is up." Shortly after seven that evening, Devdas took Mohandas and the doctors aside. In what he would later describe as "the sweetest of all wrangles I ever had with my father," he pleaded fiercely that Ba be given the life saving medicine, even though the doctors told him her condition was beyond help. It was Mohandas, after learning that the penicillin had to be administered by injection every four to six hours, who finally persuaded his youngest son to give up the idea. "Why do you want to prolong your mother's agonies after all the suffering she has been through?" Gandhi asked. Then he said, "You can't cure her now, no matter what miracle drug you may muster. But if you insist, I will not stand in your way. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasturba_Gandhi) The OP's calumny is reminiscent of an earlier incident where Kasturba was ill, and doctors insisted that she needed to eat beef to get better. They asked his permission, and he said that he would not grant it, but that if she was in a position to indicate her wishes, she could choose for herself. http://www.gandhi-manibhavan.org/gandhicomesalive/chap01.htm http://www.gandhi-manibhavan.org/gandhicomesalive/chap01.htm If there is something actually interesting and historically verifiable elsewhere in this apparent hit job of an essay, I'd be grateful for a pointer, though. What is it with the recent campaign to slam Gandhi? (http://www.metafilter.com/101933/We-believe-as-much-in-the-purity-of-races-as-we-think-they-do http://www.metafilter.com/101933/We-believe-as-much-in-the-p...)

techiferous 16y ago
"What is it with the recent campaign to slam Gandhi?" Perhaps it's that, even with his flaws, Gandhi raises the bar really high. He reminds us that we have much more internal power and potential than we want to admit to ourselves and that we have a responsibility to others.
akkartik 16y ago
I'm not sure what version to trust on that particular story[1], but read on. It's more an attack on the movie (and an establishment's propaganda) than on the man. I'm Indian, and I grew up steeped in the legend of Gandhi. I've always had a close identification with him. His birthday is adjacent to mine, and I used to wear these round glasses as an adolescent. I say these things to show that I should dislike this essay. And yet I find myself unable to. It's a good, balanced, exquisitely written essay. And having read it and pondered it and enjoyed it I find my opinion of Gandhi hasn't materially changed. He had the hustle of an entrepreneur. "Gandhi was erratic, irrational, tyrannical, obstinate. He sometimes verged on lunacy. He believed in a religion whose ideas I find somewhat repugnant. He worshipped cows. But I will say this: he was brave. He feared no one." Even the attack on Hinduism is interesting (I assume that's the part http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2409364 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2409364 referred to as looney-land. I call it 'things you can't say'). It's cathartic to find that there's as much to criticize about Hinduism as about any of the other major religions, something I hadn't quite focused on until now. Perhaps I'm losing my roots. --- [1] http://www.hark.com/clips/fcxrvdvphc-who-cares http://www.hark.com/clips/fcxrvdvphc-who-cares, http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0068895 http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0068895

dman 16y ago

Why is this on HN?

lolaspies 16y ago
Because people with aspergers love to be nitpicking, soul-less jackasses. edit: lol, multiple downvotes within minutes. Haven't you aspies got better things to do, like say playing minecraft, or relentlessly arguing on some obscure forum that Shakespeare didn't write his works?
- techiferous 16y ago
  HN should have a feature to flag entire profiles for deletion.

Joakal 16y ago

The Julian Assange Nobody Knows (2007) [0] [0] http://web.archive.org/web/20071020051936/http://iq.org/ http://web.archive.org/web/20071020051936/http://iq.org/

tumpak 16y ago

He is trying to say Gandhi is flawed and trying desperately to prove it. I celebrate any man with many flaws who goes on to create wonderful impact in the world. I don't think I learned much from the original post. I already knew Gandhi was flawed. That is why he was wonderful. Being a man with many flaws, he achieved what was thought impossible. This reaffirms that we each can change the world despite our own deep flaws. Critics like to find flaws in each detail and strip us all naked. Thats what the original post seemed to me.

kedi_xed 16y ago
I learned a lot. I don't think the article is of a high quality, but it has now broadened my viewpoint on Gandhi. I find it hard to believe in something with no faults. And it seems that human nature shows that the more adamant someone is in being pure and showing the world, the more a deeper darker side they seem to have. I hate it when people are portrayed as super human. Finding out about their weird quirks takes them down a peg..gando is just a bloke...

come_and_hear 16y ago

Fair enough. "[From the magazine, "Commentary," March 1983, published monthly by the American Jewish Committee, New York, NY.]" But this was a very 'robust' critique. Am I an "anti-semite" if I ask if the Commentary magazine would focus their sharp critical lens on Talmud ("dung") and "Saint Einstein"?

deepGem 16y ago

I think one should read the book 'My experiments with truth' before commenting on the Mahatma. The movie of course is bound to exaggerate things, which movie doesn't ? However, claiming that the Indian government and other 'national interests' twisted the movie's story in Gandhi's favor is quite ridiculous. http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/english/etext-project/biography/gandhi/ http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/english/etext-projec...

ajaimk 16y ago

One man's hero is another man's villain. Remember the "good stuff" about them, follow said "good stuff" and forget the not so "good stuff". If you don't have anything "good" to say, shut up and go about doing "good stuff" yourself.

ajaimk 16y ago
Do explain the down-votes when you make them.

BuddhaSource 16y ago

Lets keep it real, There is no perfect man! A man leaves behind his persona of what he believed or did. His karma is respected. There is always a down side to everyone, as for Gandhi he failed as a father & many more things. Accept it, this should not affect your believe for what he did which no one else could. I believe Steve Jobs for what he doing, I know he is not perfect. lol my 2cents :P

joelrunyon 16y ago

I'm always amazed at people's desire to disparage those who have had a positive impact on the world. Ghandi obviously wasn't perfect, but he did plenty of good things. It's easy to be a critic, but before you decide you need to criticize something, ask yourself "what good have I done lately?" Then shutup and get to work.

asciilifeform 16y ago

To the naysayers: What would you have to find out about this man to stop worshipping him? That he ate kittens? Or are the facts simply irrelevant?