8 ms·

I'm a complete outsider to the python ecosystem, from time to time I need to write a script or use a popular python library like pygments and I used to hate hav

I'm a complete outsider to the python ecosystem, from time to time I need to write a script or use a popular python library like pygments and I used to hate having to do anything with python because of how difficult it seemed to install anything (cognitive overload of having 20 different ways to install things...). Anyway, recently I discovered miniconda and it seems like the best, most unambiguous way to install python. It is small (in rel terms...), it works like a charm on Windows, and I can just do something run a single command like `conda install pygments` and I'm all set! Just not sure why I would ever need to look into something like poetry, although I heard conda and poetry can complement each other somehow? (as do pip, easy_install or whatever is called and all the others haha :-p).

Spiritus 6y ago
> [...] from time to time I need to write a script or use a popular python library like pygments and I used to hate having to do anything with python because of how difficult it seemed to install anything Not sure I understand why you're having so much trouble. It's literally two commands: $ python3 -m venv venv # Create virtualenv $ ./venv/bin/pip install pygments However! One unfortunate thing with this is that `python3 -m venv` doesn't include the 'wheel' package in the virtualenv out-of-the-box. So it's often a good idea to install/upgrade pip, setuptools and wheel after creating the virtualenv: $ ./venv/bin/pip install -U pip setuptools wheel
- emmanueloga_ 6y ago
  "Not sure I understands why you're having so much trouble" ... proceeds to explain a procedure that involves understanding various moving parts, including virtualenvs, pip, setuptools, wheel, etc... Even if I'm not gonna get deep into python, I like to feel like I understand what's going on. With python it just involves a lot more effort than with other ecosystems, even if you think that these things are easy to learn. Compare with ruby: `gem install the-gem`. Done. No "virtual envs", no plethora of similar but different tools to do slightly the same thing / whatever, no preconditions, no step by step procedures. Simplicity is important!
  - ElliotH 6y ago
    My experience of Ruby, which is admittedly a few years old, is that people did use multiple Ruby environments through e.g rbenv to manage different sets of gem versions, which is what "virtual envs" are the equivalent of. Now, I do agree the Python tooling situation is kind of a mess, but there you can still do: "pip install the-package" And you're just as good, all the other tools are when you're trying to do stuff harder like: - Maintain multiple development environments - Publish new packages - Build binary packages - Handle Windows I think on Ruby you need tools beyond "gem install" to do those as well. The point is how we achieve simplicity while keeping the ability to do those things.
  - helgie 6y ago
    You can just do 'pip install the-package' in python if you aren't using a virtual environment. Ruby does have the equivalent of virtual environments, using RVM or rbenv (similar but different tools), to solve the same problems as in Python.
- thiht 6y ago
  Virtual envs never made sense to me. I never understood what made Python so special that it needed these. I never got where the virtual env is, what it does and why I need it. Why can't I just `pip3 install xxx` and be done with it? Python dependency management is a nightmare, and it seems like it always will be due to the insane number of so called "easy" solutions.
  - viraptor 6y ago
    Python is not special in this case. Virtualenv is pretty much equivalent to: - bundle --path env_directory - gopath - any other language's vendoring solution In Ruby for example you can do "gem install foo" or add foo to Gemfile and use bundler. Those work similar to "pip install foo" or adding foo to pyproject and using poetry. It was worse and complicated, but for years now it seems like complaining about venv is closer to a meme, since people go away and do pretty much the same thing in other languages. (Or don't have that option in something like C)
    - thiht 6y ago
      I don't know about Ruby, but it's nothing like Gopath or node_modules, nor Yarn PnP for what it's worth. Virtualenv still need to be created per project and must be "activated". The fact that they're a somewhat hidden stateful context is still complicated and confusing. The fact is when I retrieve a Python project, I still have no idea what command I should run to install the dependencies and setup everything. With Go modules it's just `go get`, and with JS projects it's just `npm install` or `yarn install`
      - viraptor 6y ago
        The concept is the same. I'm not saying the implementation is identical. And I meant gopath before modules - where you have to explicitly define your environment.
globular-toast 6y ago
Conda is kind of like using Ubuntu instead of a bleeding edge distro. Things work because you're on old versions of things. It's not an ideal solution. Poetry gives you the best of both worlds.
- emmanueloga_ 6y ago
  Oh, never heard explained like that, that makes sense. For what is worth, I was an archlinux user for years until I got tired of the madness and switched back to ubuntu... so perhaps conda is for me after all :-p
curiousgal 6y ago
Well I just want to share my absolute hatred for conda on Windows. Using Anaconda Navigator has been the bane of my existence whenever I use my work Windows laptop. It's wonky, the UI is horrible, it takes ridiculously longer times than plain pip etc.
- emmanueloga_ 6y ago
  I also made the mistake of installing a full conda distribution.. worst experience ever! Miniconda is (almost?) stand-alone though. It is a minimal install and you admin your packages through the command line. I'd say, just uninstall conda completely from your system and try from scratch with miniconda [1]. 1: https://docs.conda.io/en/latest/miniconda.html https://docs.conda.io/en/latest/miniconda.html

Spiritus 6y ago

> [...] from time to time I need to write a script or use a popular python library like pygments and I used to hate having to do anything with python because of how difficult it seemed to install anything Not sure I understand why you're having so much trouble. It's literally two commands: $ python3 -m venv venv # Create virtualenv $ ./venv/bin/pip install pygments However! One unfortunate thing with this is that `python3 -m venv` doesn't include the 'wheel' package in the virtualenv out-of-the-box. So it's often a good idea to install/upgrade pip, setuptools and wheel after creating the virtualenv: $ ./venv/bin/pip install -U pip setuptools wheel

emmanueloga_ 6y ago
"Not sure I understands why you're having so much trouble" ... proceeds to explain a procedure that involves understanding various moving parts, including virtualenvs, pip, setuptools, wheel, etc... Even if I'm not gonna get deep into python, I like to feel like I understand what's going on. With python it just involves a lot more effort than with other ecosystems, even if you think that these things are easy to learn. Compare with ruby: `gem install the-gem`. Done. No "virtual envs", no plethora of similar but different tools to do slightly the same thing / whatever, no preconditions, no step by step procedures. Simplicity is important!
- ElliotH 6y ago
  My experience of Ruby, which is admittedly a few years old, is that people did use multiple Ruby environments through e.g rbenv to manage different sets of gem versions, which is what "virtual envs" are the equivalent of. Now, I do agree the Python tooling situation is kind of a mess, but there you can still do: "pip install the-package" And you're just as good, all the other tools are when you're trying to do stuff harder like: - Maintain multiple development environments - Publish new packages - Build binary packages - Handle Windows I think on Ruby you need tools beyond "gem install" to do those as well. The point is how we achieve simplicity while keeping the ability to do those things.
- helgie 6y ago
  You can just do 'pip install the-package' in python if you aren't using a virtual environment. Ruby does have the equivalent of virtual environments, using RVM or rbenv (similar but different tools), to solve the same problems as in Python.
thiht 6y ago
Virtual envs never made sense to me. I never understood what made Python so special that it needed these. I never got where the virtual env is, what it does and why I need it. Why can't I just `pip3 install xxx` and be done with it? Python dependency management is a nightmare, and it seems like it always will be due to the insane number of so called "easy" solutions.
- viraptor 6y ago
  Python is not special in this case. Virtualenv is pretty much equivalent to: - bundle --path env_directory - gopath - any other language's vendoring solution In Ruby for example you can do "gem install foo" or add foo to Gemfile and use bundler. Those work similar to "pip install foo" or adding foo to pyproject and using poetry. It was worse and complicated, but for years now it seems like complaining about venv is closer to a meme, since people go away and do pretty much the same thing in other languages. (Or don't have that option in something like C)
  - thiht 6y ago
    I don't know about Ruby, but it's nothing like Gopath or node_modules, nor Yarn PnP for what it's worth. Virtualenv still need to be created per project and must be "activated". The fact that they're a somewhat hidden stateful context is still complicated and confusing. The fact is when I retrieve a Python project, I still have no idea what command I should run to install the dependencies and setup everything. With Go modules it's just `go get`, and with JS projects it's just `npm install` or `yarn install`
    - viraptor 6y ago
      The concept is the same. I'm not saying the implementation is identical. And I meant gopath before modules - where you have to explicitly define your environment.

globular-toast 6y ago

Conda is kind of like using Ubuntu instead of a bleeding edge distro. Things work because you're on old versions of things. It's not an ideal solution. Poetry gives you the best of both worlds.

emmanueloga_ 6y ago
Oh, never heard explained like that, that makes sense. For what is worth, I was an archlinux user for years until I got tired of the madness and switched back to ubuntu... so perhaps conda is for me after all :-p

curiousgal 6y ago

Well I just want to share my absolute hatred for conda on Windows. Using Anaconda Navigator has been the bane of my existence whenever I use my work Windows laptop. It's wonky, the UI is horrible, it takes ridiculously longer times than plain pip etc.

emmanueloga_ 6y ago
I also made the mistake of installing a full conda distribution.. worst experience ever! Miniconda is (almost?) stand-alone though. It is a minimal install and you admin your packages through the command line. I'd say, just uninstall conda completely from your system and try from scratch with miniconda [1]. 1: https://docs.conda.io/en/latest/miniconda.html https://docs.conda.io/en/latest/miniconda.html