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I've heard it expressed in Japan that coworkers who were unwilling to drink in the obligatory after-work bar visit were untrustworthy. They were taking advantag
by supportlocal4h 6y ago
I've heard it expressed in Japan that coworkers who were unwilling to drink in the obligatory after-work bar visit were untrustworthy. They were taking advantage of their coworkers. The drunk coworkers would share unguarded thoughts while the sober one wouldn't. All taking and never giving was unscrupulous.
Years ago, it was almost a requirement to participate. One rationale was that being drunk excused someone who spoke their mind. As speaking your mind to your boss was not allowed in sober company, but sometimes critically important to the success of a company, you had to at least pretend to be drunk and go along with everybody else's pretense. That's oversimplifying it, but you get the idea.
- austincheney 6y agoIf you require an excuse to exercise honesty there is every indication the climate is probably toxic, potentially abusive, and certainly coercive.
- TomMarius 6y agoAs if that wasn't already clear from the whole "die at your workplace" thing
- Xixi 6y agoI'm sure many Japanese salarymen would agree with your description. I used to work in a small familial company in Osaka where you didn't need an excuse to "exercise honesty", but from I gather it was the exception more than the rule. So far of all the places I worked at it was probably the one I enjoyed the most in terms of atmosphere and relation with coworkers, alas the work was not particularly interesting. I still pay my former coworkers a visit from time to time.
- innocenat 6y agoWell, it's Osaka. A lot of Japanese wouldn't consider Osaka to be a part of Japan lol.
- Xixi 6y agoI’ve travelled to many places around Japan, never once has anyone told me that Osaka wasn’t in Japan. There are lots of stereotypes about people coming from various cities/regions in Japan (Tokyo: cold, Kyoto: indecipherable, Osaka: uneducated/rude, Hokkaido: weird, Okinawa: lazy, etc.), but Osaka not in Japan? Never once.
- lovemenot 6y agoGiven the earnestness of the reply, may we suppose you are not from Osaka?
- innocenat 6y agoIt's a running joke. A lot of stereotype of Japanese people simply doesn't apply to Osaka. Eating while walking? Check. Jaywalk? Check. Cross road on pedestrian red? We do it all the time.
- eska 6y agoI only ever hear Japanese people say that Okinawa is not "real" Japan.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- baby 6y agoI’ve never seen such a place in the western world tbh. Most of the real talk happens over drinks after work.
- austincheney 6y agoThat is a geopolitical subcultural anomoly. Where I live, over the course of my corporate career, virtually nobody has communal drinks after work. There is a combination of driving commute and family obligations that eliminates that possiblity.
- LunaSea 6y agoIt's called the Netherlands
- ThePadawan 6y agoNice to hear that - I was about to rep Germany as well ;). Though it's surprising how badly this can go even in close countries such as Switzerland. I once left feedback such as "this 3h on how to use Powerpoint should only be 30min. It doesn't have a lot of content, and the teacher clearly isn't interested" on a company course (where it was explicitly requested). I was summarily called into an HR meeting to explain that such direct language was not appropriate. I did not make it much longer at that company.
- koonsolo 6y agoAs a Belgian I can confirm. The Dutch are considered very blunt. We Flemisch people are more subtle and diplomatic. But in a working environment, it's actually pretty good to just be brutally honest about stuff, even when you step on other peoples toes.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- P4wl0w 6y agoGood for people who enjoy it but I do not. Alcohol is a drug which has very bad effects on my system and I try to avoid it when possible. If this is the condition for serious business for someone they will have to do business somewhere else.
- sneak 6y agoLeaving aside the relative merits of various systems of resource allocation, any society wherein one must work to be able to procure food and shelter includes at least a small element of coercion, even if the only force at fault is nature/physics (due to your body’s need for input energy). Farm or die, as it were. We’ve extended that with specialization, and some societies have patched over it with regulations, but ultimately there is a natural coercive force applied on Earth with regards to “work”: hunger.
- austincheney 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion Coercion directly suggests threats and force, which is suggestive of toxic retribution. That is completely different than an ethical order from a supervisor to a subordinate to perform a job task directly related to their job or area of responsibility. In my current job I am a manage of managers owning a small helpdesk department. When I need something done I tell my junior managers the task to accomplish and expect the results in a given time frame. I don't have to threaten harm or use fear as a tool, because that's hostile and toxic. Perhaps instead you mean influence. Good leaders will attempt to realign the goals and thoughts of their staff to the goals of the work using rewards and positive reinforcement.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- rmah 6y agoLol, that's almost saying that you are being coerced to eat, drink and breath (by nature?). At that point, the word has lost its meaning.
- theelous3 6y ago"Being alive is coercion!" This is such an over intellectualisation. What is coercive here? You can't call the innate physical realities of your own body acting within its self coercion.
- distantaidenn 6y agoThis is patently false. You drink at the nomikai because everyone drinks at the nomikai. If you don't join, then you are seen as not being a team player. It's as simple as that. There is no subterfuge going on. Hell, the boss is usually the one that ends up the most drunk. Yes, perhaps some people may use it as a way to gain some insight, but you can apply that to anything. And in addition, whatever is said or done at the nomikai stays in the nomikai. It's a way for the team to blow off some steam and be honest with each other. The next day, people carry on as if it never happened. I've been the drunk guy and the sober guy in these situations. You do learn a lot, but it's not the purpose of the gathering. Source: I've lived and worked in Japan and Korea for over a decade.
- tempestn 6y agoYou open with, "This is patently false," but then don't really seem to contract what the OP said.
- nhlx2 6y agoExactly my confusion!
- unabst 6y agoOP is saying nomikais are about trust. P is saying they are about team, and that they help bring the boss down and lift the workers up. Nomikais are both. If anything it's just an excuse to drink, and each company or team would decide how they drank. It starts in college with bukatsu nomikais. And there are good ones, and the ones where the ring leader is arrested for serial rape. That happened at Todai, and is definitely not normal, but unless you're the leader (there is always a leader) how are you to know until you show up and everyone starts drinking? Much like frat recruiting in the States. My year, someone died (1997 I think it was).
- tempestn 6y agoYeah, it could be both. Also the two are somewhat complementary. Hence my (apparently typo'ed) statement that it didn't contradict the OP's comment.
- romanoderoma 6y ago> One rationale was that being drunk excused someone who spoke their mind That's not why they do (did?) it, it is used to force management and employers to socialize, they have a very rigid social hierarchy and don't socialize much spontaneously, so they force themselves to do it. It's the same reason why they have a lot of national holidays based on nature or events (Keirō no hi respect for the aged day, Kodomo no Hi childern's day, Tennō Tanjōbi the emperor birthday, the green day, the mountain day, the marine day etc. etc.) to force them to take a break from work.