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> The NSA, however, can and will use data they collect on you against you. The NSA can't collect your data if you are a US citizen or are a non-US citizen insi

> The NSA, however, can and will use data they collect on you against you. The NSA can't collect your data if you are a US citizen or are a non-US citizen inside the US, and they certainly can't "use [it] against you." > Have you not heard of PRISM? The US routinely can and does force companies to give up information on citizens in the form of dragnet surveillance. PRISM does not use dragnet surveillance. It's right there in the slides that Snowden leaked and repeated in the documents the government declassified. https://www.cnet.com/news/no-evidence-of-nsas-direct-access-to-tech-companies/ https://www.cnet.com/news/no-evidence-of-nsas-direct-access-...

dredmorbius 6y ago
The NSA cannot legally do so (usually, exceptions exist), or utilise the information specifically in a court of law. Legal definitions of what does or does not specifically constitute "search" are vague to the point of meaninglessness. The four other members of the Five Eyes are under no such restrictions, among others, and parallel construction can at least putatively separate the fruit from its poisonous tree. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-directs-agents-to-cover-up-program-used-to-investigate-americans-idUSBRE97409R20130805 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-dir... https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/450393-nsa-improperly-collected-us-phone-records-in-october-new-documents https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/450393-nsa-impr... https://theintercept.com/2019/10/10/fbi-nsa-mass-surveillance-abuse/ https://theintercept.com/2019/10/10/fbi-nsa-mass-surveillanc... https://www.foxnews.com/politics/newly-declassified-court-documents-reveal-fbi-fisa-violations-in-targeting-americans https://www.foxnews.com/politics/newly-declassified-court-do... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/09/nsa-loophole-warrantless-searches-email-calls https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/09/nsa-loophole-w... Say you're the NSA. By law, there are certain sorts of spying you're not lawfully allowed to do on Americans. (And agency rules constraining you too.) But wait. Allied countries have different laws and surveillance rules. If there are times when America's spy agency has an easier time spying on Brits, and times when Britain's spying agency has an easier time spying on Americans, it's easy to see where the incentives lead. Put bluntly, intelligence agencies have an incentive to make themselves complicit in foreign governments spying on their own citizens. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/is-the-five-eyes-alliance-conspiring-to-spy-on-you/277190/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/is-the-...
- lern_too_spel 6y ago
  > The four other members of the Five Eyes are under no such restrictions. None of your links provide any evidence that they do so, which makes sense because the agreement that the Five Eyes programs derive from was a no-spy agreement between the members. If the US government asked other countries to spy on its citizens to skirt its own laws, there would have been evidence in Snowden's document haul, and that would have been the biggest story in them. Instead, bupkis. To reiterate the initial point, I don't know why you have those links given that they say absolutely nothing that supports your claim.
  - dredmorbius 6y ago
    Addressing surveillance of UK nationals by the NSA: The phone, internet and email records of UK citizens not suspected of any wrongdoing have been analysed and stored by America's National Security Agency under a secret deal that was approved by British intelligence officials, according to documents from the whistleblower Edward Snowden. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/20/us-uk-secret-deal-surveillance-personal-data https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/20/us-uk-secret-d... Reuters reports the agreement as reciprocal: Britain’s spy agency GCHQ has tapped fibre-optic cables that carry international phone and internet traffic and is sharing vast quantities of personal information with the U.S. National Security Agency, the Guardian newspaper said on Friday. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-security-britain/british-spy-agency-taps-cables-shares-with-u-s-nsa-guardian-idUKBRE95K10620130621 https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-security-britain/briti... Lawfare on the Five Eyes agreement itself which specifically does permit information sharing: Born from spying arrangements forged during World War II, the Five Eyes alliance facilitates the sharing of signals intelligence among the U.S., the U.K., Australia, Canada and New Zealand. The Five Eyes countries agree to exchange by default all signals intelligence they gather, as well as methods and techniques related to signals intelligence operations. https://www.lawfareblog.com/newly-disclosed-documents-five-eyes-alliance-and-what-they-tell-us-about-intelligence-sharing https://www.lawfareblog.com/newly-disclosed-documents-five-e...
    - lern_too_spel 6y ago

dredmorbius 6y ago

The NSA cannot legally do so (usually, exceptions exist), or utilise the information specifically in a court of law. Legal definitions of what does or does not specifically constitute "search" are vague to the point of meaninglessness. The four other members of the Five Eyes are under no such restrictions, among others, and parallel construction can at least putatively separate the fruit from its poisonous tree. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-directs-agents-to-cover-up-program-used-to-investigate-americans-idUSBRE97409R20130805 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-dir... https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/450393-nsa-improperly-collected-us-phone-records-in-october-new-documents https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/450393-nsa-impr... https://theintercept.com/2019/10/10/fbi-nsa-mass-surveillance-abuse/ https://theintercept.com/2019/10/10/fbi-nsa-mass-surveillanc... https://www.foxnews.com/politics/newly-declassified-court-documents-reveal-fbi-fisa-violations-in-targeting-americans https://www.foxnews.com/politics/newly-declassified-court-do... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/09/nsa-loophole-warrantless-searches-email-calls https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/09/nsa-loophole-w... Say you're the NSA. By law, there are certain sorts of spying you're not lawfully allowed to do on Americans. (And agency rules constraining you too.) But wait. Allied countries have different laws and surveillance rules. If there are times when America's spy agency has an easier time spying on Brits, and times when Britain's spying agency has an easier time spying on Americans, it's easy to see where the incentives lead. Put bluntly, intelligence agencies have an incentive to make themselves complicit in foreign governments spying on their own citizens. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/is-the-five-eyes-alliance-conspiring-to-spy-on-you/277190/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/is-the-...

lern_too_spel 6y ago
> The four other members of the Five Eyes are under no such restrictions. None of your links provide any evidence that they do so, which makes sense because the agreement that the Five Eyes programs derive from was a no-spy agreement between the members. If the US government asked other countries to spy on its citizens to skirt its own laws, there would have been evidence in Snowden's document haul, and that would have been the biggest story in them. Instead, bupkis. To reiterate the initial point, I don't know why you have those links given that they say absolutely nothing that supports your claim.
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  Addressing surveillance of UK nationals by the NSA: The phone, internet and email records of UK citizens not suspected of any wrongdoing have been analysed and stored by America's National Security Agency under a secret deal that was approved by British intelligence officials, according to documents from the whistleblower Edward Snowden. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/20/us-uk-secret-deal-surveillance-personal-data https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/20/us-uk-secret-d... Reuters reports the agreement as reciprocal: Britain’s spy agency GCHQ has tapped fibre-optic cables that carry international phone and internet traffic and is sharing vast quantities of personal information with the U.S. National Security Agency, the Guardian newspaper said on Friday. https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-security-britain/british-spy-agency-taps-cables-shares-with-u-s-nsa-guardian-idUKBRE95K10620130621 https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-security-britain/briti... Lawfare on the Five Eyes agreement itself which specifically does permit information sharing: Born from spying arrangements forged during World War II, the Five Eyes alliance facilitates the sharing of signals intelligence among the U.S., the U.K., Australia, Canada and New Zealand. The Five Eyes countries agree to exchange by default all signals intelligence they gather, as well as methods and techniques related to signals intelligence operations. https://www.lawfareblog.com/newly-disclosed-documents-five-eyes-alliance-and-what-they-tell-us-about-intelligence-sharing https://www.lawfareblog.com/newly-disclosed-documents-five-e...
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago