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It’s really interesting to see people in general confront the actual costs of computing when they’re charged for asking a question. The reaction is, universally

It’s really interesting to see people in general confront the actual costs of computing when they’re charged for asking a question. The reaction is, universally, “how dare you charge me for zero results”, as though it’s free to search for an answer - as if the time and money spent on performing that search must be given for free to all askers. Most providers bury this cost in their revenue model and hide it from users. While PACER is probably charging more than is necessary, they’re definitely not burying it, and I’m honestly quite happy to see that. There is an interesting parallel in that common and widespread reaction that match issues we’ve seen with essential workers during the pandemic, where for example a customer will say “Why should I wear a mask? There’s no one in here!”, somehow failing to recognize the worker as a human being in the process. So, to translate the PACER pricing objection into the human equivalent, I present a question: Do human librarians deserve to be paid a wage for performing a search that finds no results, or should their wages be docked if they can’t find anything?

tehjoker 6y ago
I think the problem is user fees for a system that is supposedly funded by the entirety of society so we can ensure fair process. If you have to pay for literally nothing, it rankles. Instead, the system should just be funded by taxes like (most of) the courts themselves. Perhaps there could be user fees for extremely high usage, but $10 seems like an extremely low bar for $0.08 per page. The system as it exists appears to simply discourage the public from getting too nosy in the workings of the courts.
- floatingatoll 6y ago
  I think it should be more like the post office or public transit, where a nominal fee is charged (or none at all) but that fee is not the primary source of funding. Small fees are very effective at limiting the human tendency to abuse anything offered at $0. I agree that the current fees are higher than is necessary to prevent abuse - and I think it should be free to taxpayers.
subroutine 6y ago
A library card is typically a flat fee, and you can perform as many 'searches' as you want. In a bookstore, you can ask the clerks if they have books on a particular topic, and they will show you their wares. You can browse covers and abstracts for free, to help you decide whether anything is worth purchasing. Wouldn't that be a better model for PACER to follow? Or think of it this way... how often would you go to a library or bookstore that charged you simply for looking around (additional charges apply for each aisle you walk down)?
xxpor 6y ago
>as though it’s free to search for an answer The entire economic system of the Internet is built on the fact that the marginal cost of every action is essentially $0. It's certainly no where remotely close to 10 cents. More like 10 millionths of a cent.

tehjoker 6y ago

I think the problem is user fees for a system that is supposedly funded by the entirety of society so we can ensure fair process. If you have to pay for literally nothing, it rankles. Instead, the system should just be funded by taxes like (most of) the courts themselves. Perhaps there could be user fees for extremely high usage, but $10 seems like an extremely low bar for $0.08 per page. The system as it exists appears to simply discourage the public from getting too nosy in the workings of the courts.

floatingatoll 6y ago
I think it should be more like the post office or public transit, where a nominal fee is charged (or none at all) but that fee is not the primary source of funding. Small fees are very effective at limiting the human tendency to abuse anything offered at $0. I agree that the current fees are higher than is necessary to prevent abuse - and I think it should be free to taxpayers.

subroutine 6y ago

A library card is typically a flat fee, and you can perform as many 'searches' as you want. In a bookstore, you can ask the clerks if they have books on a particular topic, and they will show you their wares. You can browse covers and abstracts for free, to help you decide whether anything is worth purchasing. Wouldn't that be a better model for PACER to follow? Or think of it this way... how often would you go to a library or bookstore that charged you simply for looking around (additional charges apply for each aisle you walk down)?

xxpor 6y ago

>as though it’s free to search for an answer The entire economic system of the Internet is built on the fact that the marginal cost of every action is essentially $0. It's certainly no where remotely close to 10 cents. More like 10 millionths of a cent.