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Freedom, rational thought, free speech, democracy, rule of law etc. aren't "Western" values, they're "Enlightenment" values. After the "West" adopted them, it (

by tomp 6y ago

Freedom, rational thought, free speech, democracy, rule of law etc. aren't "Western" values, they're "Enlightenment" values. After the "West" adopted them, it (the countries, and the people) enjoyed unprecedented improvement in living standards, a scientific boom and so on. China is free to adopt those values anytime. In the meantime, I (and looks like many other Westerns) will be working towards ensuring that non-Enlightenment values don't creep back up into the West (from China, the Islamic world, Russia, etc. - not limited to what I wrote above but also things like corporal punishment, women's rights, separation of church and state, ...) - that would be a regression from our point of view.

chucknthem 6y ago
The majority of Chinese people have seen an unprecedented improvement in living standards over the past 3 decades, with scientific and engineering breakthroughs to boot. Hard to see them adopt western values from their perspective, they're doing fine without it.
- stronglikedan 6y ago
  > The majority of Chinese people It's the majority's treatment of the minority that concerns me.
  - kjjw 6y ago
    Get over yourselves. From an outside perspective I am concerned about the US’s treatment of its own minorities. Have you heard how Trump talks about minorities?! Sorry but no, from where I stand I don’t see any difference on this between China and the US. And before anyone says anything about detention centres, I’m sorry but you can’t have a prison populations in the millions made up mostly of minority people and point fingers there.
- bordercases 6y ago
  You mean – with how they want to consume like Americans (where mainly your coastal city populations benefit, not your inner provinces), they get education from Americans when they go abroad for university, they transfer trade secrets from American labs, and the way 海外华人 got recalled after accumulating wealth in other countries, including America? No dice buddy.
fakeslimshady 6y ago
rational thought, free speech, democracy, rule of law . Trumps administration has pushed the US backwards on all these fronts and has nothting to do with those other countries
- bordercases 6y ago
  As long as we're playing this game then Winnie the Pooh loves genocide against Muslims, thus so must you.
  - fakeslimshady 6y ago
    The US killed millions in last 2 wars. Acutal deaths. China is accused of what ? actual re-education. Both in reaction to terror attacks. Keep in mind we are mostly reading the propaganda. Look at actual videos of people going to Xinjiang avail tells different story. Who am I kidding you are a racist claiming to support muslims , give me a break
- tomp 6y ago
  Trump's administration has been pretty powerless to affect any meaningful change, and faces plenty of very vocal opposition on all fronts (public, legislative, courts, ...).
nostrademons 6y ago
Interesting that you mention the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment started with the depopulation of Black Death, the Great Famine, and the subsequent 3 centuries of warfare (Hundred Years War, War of the Roses, Wars of Religion, etc). Europe lost roughly 60% of its population. As a result, the survivors could bargain for higher wages, which led to a power shift from the entrenched landed aristocracy to the newly emerging merchant and guild classes. (Cynically, once the lords could no longer use peasant labor to quell any challenges to their power, they lost that power to a more egalitarian middle class.) Additionally, the survivors were overwhelmingly former members of the aristocracy - the new merchant classes were largely made up of the younger sons of noble families who previously would've been shut out of an inheritance by primogeniture. They were often educated the same way as their older brothers, but lacked control over resources in the feudal system. As the feudal system collapsed, they spread the values of the nobility into the rest of society. We got egalitarian values because everybody's ancestor used to be a lord, and most of the peasants died off. There are some pretty obvious parallels to the current situation. It's very common for pandemics to lead to the collapse of current political organization.

by tomp 6y ago

chucknthem 6y ago

The majority of Chinese people have seen an unprecedented improvement in living standards over the past 3 decades, with scientific and engineering breakthroughs to boot. Hard to see them adopt western values from their perspective, they're doing fine without it.

stronglikedan 6y ago
> The majority of Chinese people It's the majority's treatment of the minority that concerns me.
- kjjw 6y ago
  Get over yourselves. From an outside perspective I am concerned about the US’s treatment of its own minorities. Have you heard how Trump talks about minorities?! Sorry but no, from where I stand I don’t see any difference on this between China and the US. And before anyone says anything about detention centres, I’m sorry but you can’t have a prison populations in the millions made up mostly of minority people and point fingers there.
bordercases 6y ago
You mean – with how they want to consume like Americans (where mainly your coastal city populations benefit, not your inner provinces), they get education from Americans when they go abroad for university, they transfer trade secrets from American labs, and the way 海外华人 got recalled after accumulating wealth in other countries, including America? No dice buddy.

fakeslimshady 6y ago

rational thought, free speech, democracy, rule of law . Trumps administration has pushed the US backwards on all these fronts and has nothting to do with those other countries

bordercases 6y ago
As long as we're playing this game then Winnie the Pooh loves genocide against Muslims, thus so must you.
- fakeslimshady 6y ago
  The US killed millions in last 2 wars. Acutal deaths. China is accused of what ? actual re-education. Both in reaction to terror attacks. Keep in mind we are mostly reading the propaganda. Look at actual videos of people going to Xinjiang avail tells different story. Who am I kidding you are a racist claiming to support muslims , give me a break
tomp 6y ago
Trump's administration has been pretty powerless to affect any meaningful change, and faces plenty of very vocal opposition on all fronts (public, legislative, courts, ...).

nostrademons 6y ago

Interesting that you mention the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment started with the depopulation of Black Death, the Great Famine, and the subsequent 3 centuries of warfare (Hundred Years War, War of the Roses, Wars of Religion, etc). Europe lost roughly 60% of its population. As a result, the survivors could bargain for higher wages, which led to a power shift from the entrenched landed aristocracy to the newly emerging merchant and guild classes. (Cynically, once the lords could no longer use peasant labor to quell any challenges to their power, they lost that power to a more egalitarian middle class.) Additionally, the survivors were overwhelmingly former members of the aristocracy - the new merchant classes were largely made up of the younger sons of noble families who previously would've been shut out of an inheritance by primogeniture. They were often educated the same way as their older brothers, but lacked control over resources in the feudal system. As the feudal system collapsed, they spread the values of the nobility into the rest of society. We got egalitarian values because everybody's ancestor used to be a lord, and most of the peasants died off. There are some pretty obvious parallels to the current situation. It's very common for pandemics to lead to the collapse of current political organization.