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I am looking at my MacBook Pro 2015 right now. There is no symbol for the alt key. You cannot control the entirety of macOS with just a keyboard. Simple examp

I am looking at my MacBook Pro 2015 right now. There is no symbol for the alt key. You cannot control the entirety of macOS with just a keyboard. Simple example: open the About this Mac window. Now switch away from it with the keyboard. I challenge you to switch back to that window with just the keyboard without installing any third-party software that changes the way that you handle window switching. Same goes for any window that you open from an app that is running in the menu bar. With better operating systems, I can put focus on and work with any aspect of the GUI. macOS is extremely limited in this area. They don’t even have an easily discoverable process for hunting through app menus with just the keyboard. On Windows, there is a thing called a keyboard acceleration. It happens when you hit alt plus the underlined letter of a menu item. This is why users with disabilities, like Stephen Hawking have historically used Windows and not Mac.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
vr46 6y ago
Command space - open Spotlight - type ‘About this’ and let it autocomplete to ‘About this Mac.app’. Press Enter.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  That's the first time I ever got this answer. So basically - start the program again. This is the height of usability? How's that work for say...a program running in the menubar, like Docker? (If you open the Docker settings window from the menubar, switch away and switch back.) I bet it doesn't.
  - jjoonathan 6y ago
    You have a macbook, but it seems to me you almost certainly grew up on Windows, because in situations where they take different approaches to the same problem you always expect the Windows behavior and haven't discovered the corresponding mac behavior. Then you blame mac for not behaving as you expect. > start the program again Case in point. On mac, choosing (through the dock, through Cmd+Tab, through Finder, through Spotlight, through terminal) an already open program has the semantics of giving it focus. On windows, it opens multiple copies. Sometimes.
    - the_other 6y ago
      Yeah. This connects with how Mac apps can be open, but not have windows. That’s pretty uncommon, or even impossible, on Windows. At least, it was when I last used Win regularly (XP!!). It’s an extension of the desktop metaphor. In a Mac, the distinction between an open app and a closed one is fuzzier than on Windows. In a Mac, you have A Mac and it helps you do things, and the Mac tends to the applications for you. In Windows, you have a computer with an OS that hosts applications that help you do things. The distinction is irrelevant when considered from the hardware outward, but is subtly but powerfully different when considered from the user inwards.
  - vr46 6y ago
    Just tried it, and it does work exactly that way, because the Docker menu -> settings choice opens an application called Docker Desktop, which can be switched to-and-from with the keyboard. I'm not arguing with your basic point, because I think that Mac strategies for keyboard navigation are simply different, not worse, but for your specific example, keyboard is fine.
  - donarb 6y ago
    > So basically - start the program again. It doesn't start the program again. Mac OS is smart enough to know if the program is already running and just switches to it.
jjoonathan 6y ago
> Simple example: open the About this Mac window. Now switch away from it with the keyboard. I challenge you to switch back to that window with just the keyboard Three-finger-up + click is way smoother than doing a random walk through your open windows. It also lends discoverability to multiple desktops at exactly the moment where you might be thinking to yourself "hmm, I could use multiple desktops right about now." > With better operating systems, I can put focus on and work with any aspect of the GUI. I'm glad you feel that way because when I use Windows I quickly get frustrated by apps stealing the focus and authorization windows opening underneath everything else. > They don’t even have an easily discoverable process for hunting through app menus with just the keyboard. lolwut? Cmd+? opens a box to incrementally search all menus, Ctrl+P and Ctrl+N let you navigate the results, and return runs the menu item. Arrow keys let you walk the focus if you don't know emacs shortcuts, and they do so in every menu. It's head and shoulders above Windows.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  > Three-finger-up + click is way smoother than doing a random walk through your open windows. Ummm, the challenge was to use the keyboard though? No amount of rationalization will convince me that taking hands your hands off the keyboard is smoother than leaving them on. I do enjoy watching junior devs struggling to find their lost full-screen workspace window by swiping furiously sideways with their trackpad though. For even more ridiculousness, I know I can always get a minute to read some news after I ask them to open Chrome devtools and wait while they try to get back to the original Chrome window afterwards. > lolwut? Cmd+? opens a box to incrementally search all menus, Ctrl+P and Ctrl+N let you navigate the results, and return runs the menu item. Pffft, okay. You don't even know the difference between searching and hunting. They're completely different operations, for different purposes. There is a way to hunt through menus with macOS, but like all Apple shortcuts it's completely obtuse.
  - jjoonathan 6y ago
    > Ummm, the challenge was to use the keyboard though? The challenge was to get to a window, quickly. The keyboard was your constraint. > I do enjoy watching junior devs struggling Funny, I enjoy watching the windows crowd alt-tab-tab-tab-tab-tab-tab-tab-tab ah were was it again? > Pffft, okay. You don't even know the difference between searching and hunting. Now you're playing with definitions to hide the fact that you were wrong. > like all Apple shortcuts it's completely obtuse. Not if you learn them. You clearly did it before, so get off your butt and do it again. Personally, I love having emacs-style Ctrl+PN and Ctrl+FB navigation available everywhere, and I love the fact that with copy/paste on Cmd+CV I don't have to worry about where a terminal app moved Ctrl+C off to.
saagarjha 6y ago
> You cannot control the entirety of macOS with just a keyboard. Yes, you can. There's an option in System Preferences called "Full Keyboard Access" to enable this. > They don’t even have an easily discoverable process for hunting through app menus with just the keyboard. macOS does it better: you can search all the menus with ⌘?. > This is why users with disabilities, like Stephen Hawking have historically used Windows and not Mac. Users with disabilities use Macs, I don't know what you're talking about. Macs are generally miles ahead in accessibility. Stephen Hawking was extremely attached to the one synthesizer he used, to the point that a team of engineers went through the effort to port that exact 30-year-old voice: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/The-Silicon-Valley-quest-to-preserve-Stephen-12759775.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/The-Silicon-Vall...
- skinnymuch 6y ago
  How do you get to things not in the menubar? For example, with Zoom you can’t disconnect audio via menu bar. Only connect and mute or unmute. Disconnecting only works via the GUI of Zoom.
  - the_other 6y ago
    Seems like a problem with Zoom, not macOS. Unless you’re suggesting that the OS-provided controls don’t consistently implement the OS-provided shortcuts. That does sounds like a concern, but in the case of Zoom, it still assumes Zoom used the default widgets. The Zoom interface on Mac seems very unlike a Mac app to me. It has that flat quality you get in Electron apps. It wouldn't be surprised if it was highly bespoke. You can’t even open the preferences with CMD-, which almost every app implements.
    - skinnymuch 6y ago
      The preference shortcut works for me. Maybe not all the time. Will have to check again. I don’t think Zoom is the only app that doesn’t have everything in the menu bar. The point was more general for when things aren’t in the menu bar (and not just electron apps) Keyboard Maestro or something else may be able to automate it. But still.
mthoms 6y ago
>I am looking at my MacBook Pro 2015 right now. There is no symbol for the alt key. Just FYI, they've corrected this since then. I'm not sure but I believe it was 2017. At that time they also removed the "alt" label so it only says "option" along with the symbol.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

vr46 6y ago

Command space - open Spotlight - type ‘About this’ and let it autocomplete to ‘About this Mac.app’. Press Enter.

wayneftw 6y ago
That's the first time I ever got this answer. So basically - start the program again. This is the height of usability? How's that work for say...a program running in the menubar, like Docker? (If you open the Docker settings window from the menubar, switch away and switch back.) I bet it doesn't.
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  You have a macbook, but it seems to me you almost certainly grew up on Windows, because in situations where they take different approaches to the same problem you always expect the Windows behavior and haven't discovered the corresponding mac behavior. Then you blame mac for not behaving as you expect. > start the program again Case in point. On mac, choosing (through the dock, through Cmd+Tab, through Finder, through Spotlight, through terminal) an already open program has the semantics of giving it focus. On windows, it opens multiple copies. Sometimes.
  - the_other 6y ago
    Yeah. This connects with how Mac apps can be open, but not have windows. That’s pretty uncommon, or even impossible, on Windows. At least, it was when I last used Win regularly (XP!!). It’s an extension of the desktop metaphor. In a Mac, the distinction between an open app and a closed one is fuzzier than on Windows. In a Mac, you have A Mac and it helps you do things, and the Mac tends to the applications for you. In Windows, you have a computer with an OS that hosts applications that help you do things. The distinction is irrelevant when considered from the hardware outward, but is subtly but powerfully different when considered from the user inwards.
- vr46 6y ago
  Just tried it, and it does work exactly that way, because the Docker menu -> settings choice opens an application called Docker Desktop, which can be switched to-and-from with the keyboard. I'm not arguing with your basic point, because I think that Mac strategies for keyboard navigation are simply different, not worse, but for your specific example, keyboard is fine.
- donarb 6y ago
  > So basically - start the program again. It doesn't start the program again. Mac OS is smart enough to know if the program is already running and just switches to it.

jjoonathan 6y ago

> Simple example: open the About this Mac window. Now switch away from it with the keyboard. I challenge you to switch back to that window with just the keyboard Three-finger-up + click is way smoother than doing a random walk through your open windows. It also lends discoverability to multiple desktops at exactly the moment where you might be thinking to yourself "hmm, I could use multiple desktops right about now." > With better operating systems, I can put focus on and work with any aspect of the GUI. I'm glad you feel that way because when I use Windows I quickly get frustrated by apps stealing the focus and authorization windows opening underneath everything else. > They don’t even have an easily discoverable process for hunting through app menus with just the keyboard. lolwut? Cmd+? opens a box to incrementally search all menus, Ctrl+P and Ctrl+N let you navigate the results, and return runs the menu item. Arrow keys let you walk the focus if you don't know emacs shortcuts, and they do so in every menu. It's head and shoulders above Windows.

wayneftw 6y ago
> Three-finger-up + click is way smoother than doing a random walk through your open windows. Ummm, the challenge was to use the keyboard though? No amount of rationalization will convince me that taking hands your hands off the keyboard is smoother than leaving them on. I do enjoy watching junior devs struggling to find their lost full-screen workspace window by swiping furiously sideways with their trackpad though. For even more ridiculousness, I know I can always get a minute to read some news after I ask them to open Chrome devtools and wait while they try to get back to the original Chrome window afterwards. > lolwut? Cmd+? opens a box to incrementally search all menus, Ctrl+P and Ctrl+N let you navigate the results, and return runs the menu item. Pffft, okay. You don't even know the difference between searching and hunting. They're completely different operations, for different purposes. There is a way to hunt through menus with macOS, but like all Apple shortcuts it's completely obtuse.
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  > Ummm, the challenge was to use the keyboard though? The challenge was to get to a window, quickly. The keyboard was your constraint. > I do enjoy watching junior devs struggling Funny, I enjoy watching the windows crowd alt-tab-tab-tab-tab-tab-tab-tab-tab ah were was it again? > Pffft, okay. You don't even know the difference between searching and hunting. Now you're playing with definitions to hide the fact that you were wrong. > like all Apple shortcuts it's completely obtuse. Not if you learn them. You clearly did it before, so get off your butt and do it again. Personally, I love having emacs-style Ctrl+PN and Ctrl+FB navigation available everywhere, and I love the fact that with copy/paste on Cmd+CV I don't have to worry about where a terminal app moved Ctrl+C off to.

saagarjha 6y ago

> You cannot control the entirety of macOS with just a keyboard. Yes, you can. There's an option in System Preferences called "Full Keyboard Access" to enable this. > They don’t even have an easily discoverable process for hunting through app menus with just the keyboard. macOS does it better: you can search all the menus with ⌘?. > This is why users with disabilities, like Stephen Hawking have historically used Windows and not Mac. Users with disabilities use Macs, I don't know what you're talking about. Macs are generally miles ahead in accessibility. Stephen Hawking was extremely attached to the one synthesizer he used, to the point that a team of engineers went through the effort to port that exact 30-year-old voice: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/The-Silicon-Valley-quest-to-preserve-Stephen-12759775.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/The-Silicon-Vall...

skinnymuch 6y ago
How do you get to things not in the menubar? For example, with Zoom you can’t disconnect audio via menu bar. Only connect and mute or unmute. Disconnecting only works via the GUI of Zoom.
- the_other 6y ago
  Seems like a problem with Zoom, not macOS. Unless you’re suggesting that the OS-provided controls don’t consistently implement the OS-provided shortcuts. That does sounds like a concern, but in the case of Zoom, it still assumes Zoom used the default widgets. The Zoom interface on Mac seems very unlike a Mac app to me. It has that flat quality you get in Electron apps. It wouldn't be surprised if it was highly bespoke. You can’t even open the preferences with CMD-, which almost every app implements.
  - skinnymuch 6y ago
    The preference shortcut works for me. Maybe not all the time. Will have to check again. I don’t think Zoom is the only app that doesn’t have everything in the menu bar. The point was more general for when things aren’t in the menu bar (and not just electron apps) Keyboard Maestro or something else may be able to automate it. But still.

mthoms 6y ago

>I am looking at my MacBook Pro 2015 right now. There is no symbol for the alt key. Just FYI, they've corrected this since then. I'm not sure but I believe it was 2017. At that time they also removed the "alt" label so it only says "option" along with the symbol.