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> the radical changes being proposed have their own problems I'd like to point out that none of said changes have been implemented anywhere in the US in any me

> the radical changes being proposed have their own problems I'd like to point out that none of said changes have been implemented anywhere in the US in any meaningful way. Save some minor defunding, I know of no locale who has transferred any responsibility away from the police, which is one of the main roads to abolition. As another poster said, this is a very clear straw man. CHAZ was a result of protesting and an incredibly aggressive Seattle PD, not an ideal people are looking to recreate everywhere.

jkingsbery 6y ago
Fair point - you're right that the suggested policies have not been implemented in a meaningful way. My point was that some relatively minor changes (de facto abandoning neighborhoods as in CHAZ, changes to bail laws in NY being two examples) have led to some pretty drastic (negative) changes to safety.
- adjkant 6y ago
  Where have bail laws caused any issue in NY? As a resident I haven't encountered any such issues. I wouldn't call "abandoning a neighborhood" a minor change either. It seems clear to me it's very much a calculated political move to do that so people can do exactly what you did - point and say "well we need police, look what happened without them". This should have no bearing on reform laws and abolition steps.
  - NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
    The article below provides a summary of the discussion on the NY bail law impact: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/nyregion/crime-stats-nyc-bail-reform.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/nyregion/crime-stats-nyc-...
    - adjkant 6y ago
      That's based on one month (January 2020) with clear political motivations directly discussed by NYT in the article If you look at NYC crime YTD, it's down 3% [1]. I don't see how thats a drastic or even minor change to public safety. Per your own link: > "Law enforcement experts say crime statistics can rise or fall in any given month for numerous reasons and explain that it is far more important to track trends over longer periods of time." One month just isn't representative of if a policy worked or not. Take March 2020 [2]. Crime down overall, including for assaults, something the NYPD blamed the bail law on in January. I specifically cherry-picked March on purpose - you can see if you look around that months go up and down. I'm not saying it's an open and shut case in either direction, but there's no macro rise as again evidenced on the YTD stats in the first source. [1] https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs-en-us-city.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statist... [2] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p0402b/nypd-citywide-crime-statistics-march-2020 https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p0402b/nypd-citywide-cri...
      - NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
        Hey; I'm just providing a source that talks about it - I don't have a dog in this fight.
        adjkant 6y ago
        Didn't mean to come off as attacking, sorry :)
dx87 6y ago
When CHAZ was first created, it was definitely being praised as a model for the rest of the country. People here were saying that any criticism of it was right-wing propaganda, and that it was a self-organized, peaceful neighborhood, and proof that we didn't need a police force to maintain peace.

jkingsbery 6y ago

Fair point - you're right that the suggested policies have not been implemented in a meaningful way. My point was that some relatively minor changes (de facto abandoning neighborhoods as in CHAZ, changes to bail laws in NY being two examples) have led to some pretty drastic (negative) changes to safety.

adjkant 6y ago
Where have bail laws caused any issue in NY? As a resident I haven't encountered any such issues. I wouldn't call "abandoning a neighborhood" a minor change either. It seems clear to me it's very much a calculated political move to do that so people can do exactly what you did - point and say "well we need police, look what happened without them". This should have no bearing on reform laws and abolition steps.
- NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
  The article below provides a summary of the discussion on the NY bail law impact: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/nyregion/crime-stats-nyc-bail-reform.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/04/nyregion/crime-stats-nyc-...
  - adjkant 6y ago
    That's based on one month (January 2020) with clear political motivations directly discussed by NYT in the article If you look at NYC crime YTD, it's down 3% [1]. I don't see how thats a drastic or even minor change to public safety. Per your own link: > "Law enforcement experts say crime statistics can rise or fall in any given month for numerous reasons and explain that it is far more important to track trends over longer periods of time." One month just isn't representative of if a policy worked or not. Take March 2020 [2]. Crime down overall, including for assaults, something the NYPD blamed the bail law on in January. I specifically cherry-picked March on purpose - you can see if you look around that months go up and down. I'm not saying it's an open and shut case in either direction, but there's no macro rise as again evidenced on the YTD stats in the first source. [1] https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cs-en-us-city.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statist... [2] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p0402b/nypd-citywide-crime-statistics-march-2020 https://www1.nyc.gov/site/nypd/news/p0402b/nypd-citywide-cri...
    - NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
      Hey; I'm just providing a source that talks about it - I don't have a dog in this fight.
      - adjkant 6y ago
        Didn't mean to come off as attacking, sorry :)

dx87 6y ago

When CHAZ was first created, it was definitely being praised as a model for the rest of the country. People here were saying that any criticism of it was right-wing propaganda, and that it was a self-organized, peaceful neighborhood, and proof that we didn't need a police force to maintain peace.