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"It's only reciprocity if you divide the world into two tribes, the "China tribe" and the "US tribe". Someone from the "China tribe" did something bad to the "U

by jariel 6y ago

"It's only reciprocity if you divide the world into two tribes, the "China tribe" and the "US tribe". Someone from the "China tribe" did something bad to the "US tribe", so now we're going to grab a random member of the "China tribe" and punish them for it, even if they're not the one responsible. I used to think the Western world had abandoned that kind of collective punishment, but apparently not." So no - this is not it at all. Reciprocity is a much more appropriate term. Trade is a big deal, trade deals are big deals. 'Free Trade' deals usually imply reciprocity on all fronts, otherwise, it's a lop-sided situation. Nation A selling services into nation B, but B not allowed to sell such services back is usually an untenable situation. If this were any other sector this 'tit for tat' would have happened a long time ago. It seems a little outlandish because these app bans affect our lives directly, instead of say a 'steel tariff of 50%' which we don't materially witness. And of course, despite the legitimacy or not of this ... this is a least 50% 'Donald Trump Campaigning'. The 'censorship' and or 'TikTok' having done something wrong are side issues. Purely on a trade basis, this is fair. Now enter the security issue, which is very real: China wants to control everyone's lives down to every passing thought. They observe, control, censor every single conversation in China. They have the means and wherewithal to do it around the world. Large Chinese companies are 'state organs' and the notion that TikTok data would be used for all sorts of advantage is legit. Google and FB can be used as tools of the US, but this is not remotely the same comparison. It's a new world order, and this action only seems unreasonable because of the person doing it, and the shocking terms. I expect a little bit more of this to happen, not less.

u801e 6y ago
> Now enter the security issue, which is very real The national security trope really only affects the government. The global pandemic has had a far greater effect on the economy and has caused far more deaths than any national security incident or terrorist attack.
- Wolfenstein98k 6y ago
  Non-sequitur. This is like saying "don't bother locking your door, you're much more likely to get mugged outside your house than robbed inside it." B being more likely than A does not form an argument against protecting yourself from A.
- jariel 6y ago
  I think by 'trope' you mean another word ('canard'?) but it doesn't just affect 'government'. The opposite - it affects everyone. China is using their networks to steal anything they can get their hands on, influence and bully politicians, students, expats, companies, administrators, researchers. They are surveilling and collecting information on anyone and everyone for the purposes of pursuing their strategic objectives. For example - if you have ever spoken out against treatment of Uighurs - you may never be able to enter China. You may get various accounts banned. You may get your peers in trouble (ie WeChat requires someone to 'vouch' for you - if someone vouches for you, and you do something bad, they could face problems). Depending on how important you are, they could lobby to have your research defunded, slander you in the press, use political leverage. You may never get a chance to work at a Chinese-owned firm. If you have IP they will nab it, or use leverage information against you should you wish to export into China. If they can influence your elections, or buy your politicians - they will. See: Belt and Road corruption. [1] If you know or interact with anyone in HK, and they can use that information in any way to leverage against and compromise the democracy movement, they absolutely will. Their strategy is bald-faced, it's right out there for everyone to see, there's nothing hidden. The only surprising issue is that there are so many Westerners who weirdly want to believe China is playing the 'modern global citizen' game - when they are obviously playing hardball realpolitik. It's fine if they want to do that, but we have to adjust accordingly. [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/01/15/the-belt-and-road-initiative-is-a-corruption-bonanza/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/01/15/the-belt-and-road-initi...

by jariel 6y ago

u801e 6y ago

> Now enter the security issue, which is very real The national security trope really only affects the government. The global pandemic has had a far greater effect on the economy and has caused far more deaths than any national security incident or terrorist attack.

Wolfenstein98k 6y ago
Non-sequitur. This is like saying "don't bother locking your door, you're much more likely to get mugged outside your house than robbed inside it." B being more likely than A does not form an argument against protecting yourself from A.
jariel 6y ago
I think by 'trope' you mean another word ('canard'?) but it doesn't just affect 'government'. The opposite - it affects everyone. China is using their networks to steal anything they can get their hands on, influence and bully politicians, students, expats, companies, administrators, researchers. They are surveilling and collecting information on anyone and everyone for the purposes of pursuing their strategic objectives. For example - if you have ever spoken out against treatment of Uighurs - you may never be able to enter China. You may get various accounts banned. You may get your peers in trouble (ie WeChat requires someone to 'vouch' for you - if someone vouches for you, and you do something bad, they could face problems). Depending on how important you are, they could lobby to have your research defunded, slander you in the press, use political leverage. You may never get a chance to work at a Chinese-owned firm. If you have IP they will nab it, or use leverage information against you should you wish to export into China. If they can influence your elections, or buy your politicians - they will. See: Belt and Road corruption. [1] If you know or interact with anyone in HK, and they can use that information in any way to leverage against and compromise the democracy movement, they absolutely will. Their strategy is bald-faced, it's right out there for everyone to see, there's nothing hidden. The only surprising issue is that there are so many Westerners who weirdly want to believe China is playing the 'modern global citizen' game - when they are obviously playing hardball realpolitik. It's fine if they want to do that, but we have to adjust accordingly. [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/01/15/the-belt-and-road-initiative-is-a-corruption-bonanza/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/01/15/the-belt-and-road-initi...