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Yeah Apple is woefully behind as I see it. The window management is clunky and backwards and the keyboard shortcuts being lauded here are too. They get even th

Yeah Apple is woefully behind as I see it. The window management is clunky and backwards and the keyboard shortcuts being lauded here are too. They get even the simplest things wrong. Instead of labeling app menu items with a word or abbreviation, they use a freaking symbol that isn’t printed anywhere on the keyboard. They have more 2-handed / 3+ key shortcuts than any other OS despite lacking the ability to let you control every aspect of the macOS GUI like you can with Windows or most Linux DEs. It’s laughable to me that anyone thinks it’s a good system and I’d love to see a productivity contest between workers who are experts in their respective OSes. Mac people would lose miserably. There’s no doubt in mind after years of working with and watching Mac users pitiful attempts at doing anything quickly or efficiently.

snazz 6y ago
The modifier key symbols are printed on most modern Apple keyboards. See the Magic Keyboard, for example. > They have more 2-handed / 3+ key shortcuts than any other OS despite lacking the ability to let you control every aspect of the macOS GUI like you can with Windows or most Linux DEs. What are you trying to say here with “every aspect”? Mac window management is the opposite of tiling window management. Windows is some sort of hybrid with the snap-to functionality. I wouldn’t say that one or the other is more effective or efficient—Mac trackpad gestures for switching between virtual desktops definitely beat alt-tabbing in Windows (although Windows 10 now finally has virtual desktops as well). They’re different workflows that you can’t expect to immediately find familiar. A “productivity contest” would likely show nearly identical results on both operating systems for the kinds of tasks that users do on a daily basis because they’ve already gotten used to doing those tasks. Switching between terminal windows, text editors, and web browsers is pretty fast on both Windows and macOS.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  I am looking at my MacBook Pro 2015 right now. There is no symbol for the alt key. You cannot control the entirety of macOS with just a keyboard. Simple example: open the About this Mac window. Now switch away from it with the keyboard. I challenge you to switch back to that window with just the keyboard without installing any third-party software that changes the way that you handle window switching. Same goes for any window that you open from an app that is running in the menu bar. With better operating systems, I can put focus on and work with any aspect of the GUI. macOS is extremely limited in this area. They don’t even have an easily discoverable process for hunting through app menus with just the keyboard. On Windows, there is a thing called a keyboard acceleration. It happens when you hit alt plus the underlined letter of a menu item. This is why users with disabilities, like Stephen Hawking have historically used Windows and not Mac.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - vr46 6y ago
    Command space - open Spotlight - type ‘About this’ and let it autocomplete to ‘About this Mac.app’. Press Enter.
    - wayneftw 6y ago
      That's the first time I ever got this answer. So basically - start the program again. This is the height of usability? How's that work for say...a program running in the menubar, like Docker? (If you open the Docker settings window from the menubar, switch away and switch back.) I bet it doesn't.
      - jjoonathan 6y ago
        You have a macbook, but it seems to me you almost certainly grew up on Windows, because in situations where they take different approaches to the same problem you always expect the Windows behavior and haven't discovered the corresponding mac behavior. Then you blame mac for not behaving as you expect. > start the program again Case in point. On mac, choosing (through the dock, through Cmd+Tab, through Finder, through Spotlight, through terminal) an already open program has the semantics of giving it focus. On windows, it opens multiple copies. Sometimes.
        the_other 6y ago
        Yeah. This connects with how Mac apps can be open, but not have windows. That’s pretty uncommon, or even impossible, on Windows. At least, it was when I last used Win regularly (XP!!). It’s an extension of the desktop metaphor. In a Mac, the distinction between an open app and a closed one is fuzzier than on Windows. In a Mac, you have A Mac and it helps you do things, and the Mac tends to the applications for you. In Windows, you have a computer with an OS that hosts applications that help you do things. The distinction is irrelevant when considered from the hardware outward, but is subtly but powerfully different when considered from the user inwards.
- ben-schaaf 6y ago
  > The modifier key symbols are printed on most modern Apple keyboards. See the Magic Keyboard, for example. Apple has loads of symbols for their keys. There's the modifier keys ⌘(cmd), ⌃(ctrl), ⌥(alt), ⇧(shift) and ⇪(caps-lock), of which shift and caps-lock are missing on the magic keyboard (in addition to ctrl and alt on the macbook in front of me). Then there's ⇥(tab), ↩(return), ⌫(delete) and ⎋(escape) to name a few. These can and do all show up in menus and documentation. With all the control they have over their hardware and software you'd think they could do better than linux on their own hardware (super and backspace are wrong, but the rest are correct at least on this macbook).
  - kps 6y ago
    Except for ⌘, those are ISO 9995 symbols.
  - egypturnash 6y ago
    I really hate how sporadically these symbols come and go; it feels like they appear or disappear on new Apple hardware every other year. The old Apple Wireless Keyboard I'm typing this on just has ⌘. The laptop it's connected to has ⌘, ⌃, ⌥. I think I have an older laptop sitting around that has ⇧ and maybe even ⎋. I wish they'd at least start always including all the ones that show up in menus.
    - tesseract 6y ago
      Historically Apple's ISO keyboards made more use of the icons than their US keyboards, although ⌃ and ⌥ are on some of the newer US keyboards. Was your older laptop a European or other ISO-keyboard model?
      - egypturnash 6y ago
        All US. I might be misremembering, it’s at the bottom of a box right now.
mtrower 6y ago
Funny, that's exactly how I feel about Windows. I'm pretty sure this is, like, your opinion, dude.

snazz 6y ago

The modifier key symbols are printed on most modern Apple keyboards. See the Magic Keyboard, for example. > They have more 2-handed / 3+ key shortcuts than any other OS despite lacking the ability to let you control every aspect of the macOS GUI like you can with Windows or most Linux DEs. What are you trying to say here with “every aspect”? Mac window management is the opposite of tiling window management. Windows is some sort of hybrid with the snap-to functionality. I wouldn’t say that one or the other is more effective or efficient—Mac trackpad gestures for switching between virtual desktops definitely beat alt-tabbing in Windows (although Windows 10 now finally has virtual desktops as well). They’re different workflows that you can’t expect to immediately find familiar. A “productivity contest” would likely show nearly identical results on both operating systems for the kinds of tasks that users do on a daily basis because they’ve already gotten used to doing those tasks. Switching between terminal windows, text editors, and web browsers is pretty fast on both Windows and macOS.

wayneftw 6y ago
I am looking at my MacBook Pro 2015 right now. There is no symbol for the alt key. You cannot control the entirety of macOS with just a keyboard. Simple example: open the About this Mac window. Now switch away from it with the keyboard. I challenge you to switch back to that window with just the keyboard without installing any third-party software that changes the way that you handle window switching. Same goes for any window that you open from an app that is running in the menu bar. With better operating systems, I can put focus on and work with any aspect of the GUI. macOS is extremely limited in this area. They don’t even have an easily discoverable process for hunting through app menus with just the keyboard. On Windows, there is a thing called a keyboard acceleration. It happens when you hit alt plus the underlined letter of a menu item. This is why users with disabilities, like Stephen Hawking have historically used Windows and not Mac.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- vr46 6y ago
  Command space - open Spotlight - type ‘About this’ and let it autocomplete to ‘About this Mac.app’. Press Enter.
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    That's the first time I ever got this answer. So basically - start the program again. This is the height of usability? How's that work for say...a program running in the menubar, like Docker? (If you open the Docker settings window from the menubar, switch away and switch back.) I bet it doesn't.
    - jjoonathan 6y ago
      You have a macbook, but it seems to me you almost certainly grew up on Windows, because in situations where they take different approaches to the same problem you always expect the Windows behavior and haven't discovered the corresponding mac behavior. Then you blame mac for not behaving as you expect. > start the program again Case in point. On mac, choosing (through the dock, through Cmd+Tab, through Finder, through Spotlight, through terminal) an already open program has the semantics of giving it focus. On windows, it opens multiple copies. Sometimes.
      - the_other 6y ago
        Yeah. This connects with how Mac apps can be open, but not have windows. That’s pretty uncommon, or even impossible, on Windows. At least, it was when I last used Win regularly (XP!!). It’s an extension of the desktop metaphor. In a Mac, the distinction between an open app and a closed one is fuzzier than on Windows. In a Mac, you have A Mac and it helps you do things, and the Mac tends to the applications for you. In Windows, you have a computer with an OS that hosts applications that help you do things. The distinction is irrelevant when considered from the hardware outward, but is subtly but powerfully different when considered from the user inwards.
ben-schaaf 6y ago
> The modifier key symbols are printed on most modern Apple keyboards. See the Magic Keyboard, for example. Apple has loads of symbols for their keys. There's the modifier keys ⌘(cmd), ⌃(ctrl), ⌥(alt), ⇧(shift) and ⇪(caps-lock), of which shift and caps-lock are missing on the magic keyboard (in addition to ctrl and alt on the macbook in front of me). Then there's ⇥(tab), ↩(return), ⌫(delete) and ⎋(escape) to name a few. These can and do all show up in menus and documentation. With all the control they have over their hardware and software you'd think they could do better than linux on their own hardware (super and backspace are wrong, but the rest are correct at least on this macbook).
- kps 6y ago
  Except for ⌘, those are ISO 9995 symbols.
- egypturnash 6y ago
  I really hate how sporadically these symbols come and go; it feels like they appear or disappear on new Apple hardware every other year. The old Apple Wireless Keyboard I'm typing this on just has ⌘. The laptop it's connected to has ⌘, ⌃, ⌥. I think I have an older laptop sitting around that has ⇧ and maybe even ⎋. I wish they'd at least start always including all the ones that show up in menus.
  - tesseract 6y ago
    Historically Apple's ISO keyboards made more use of the icons than their US keyboards, although ⌃ and ⌥ are on some of the newer US keyboards. Was your older laptop a European or other ISO-keyboard model?
    - egypturnash 6y ago
      All US. I might be misremembering, it’s at the bottom of a box right now.

mtrower 6y ago

Funny, that's exactly how I feel about Windows. I'm pretty sure this is, like, your opinion, dude.