13 ms·

The Matrix Was Intended to Be a Trans Story, Says Lilly Wachowski

27 points by znpy 6y ago

adamnemecek 6y ago
This seems a little retconned, kind of like how J.K. Rowling says that Hermione was black and such.
- moate 6y ago
  JK Rowling seems like she’ll take any credit that people want to ascribe to her. The idea that the Wachowski sisters intended this meaning based on their experience but were overruled by the suits feels more legit based on who they are in the world.
- chx 6y ago
  Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24089549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24089549 elsewhere. tl;dr: people tweeted eight years ago Matrix had trans themes at least or it's outright about being trans.
anonunivgrad 6y ago
Here are the ridiculous tweets from Netflix promoting this nonsense: https://twitter.com/NetflixFilm/status/1291439319245234177?s=20 https://twitter.com/NetflixFilm/status/1291439319245234177?s... At this point, they are mocking us. It’s incredible what bs you can churn out when everyone is scared to criticize you, lest they be canceled for being “transphobic”.
- why_only_15 6y ago
  this isn't some fan fiction or whatever this is literally the director of the movie. why do you think she's lying?
  - anonunivgrad 6y ago
    Authors lie about their work all the time. A work stands on its own. Author statements, especially after the fact, are evidence. But because their reputations and public personas are uniquely tied to the work, they should be treated very skeptically. Especially if they concern a new political issue that more or less didn’t exist at the time the work came out. She is a transwoman best known for creating the Matrix, back when she was a man. She has plenty of reason to lie. Also, the theory and “evidence” is just patently absurd. Read those tweets for yourself.
    - sky_rw 6y ago
      And more importantly now known for creating nothing good since she adopted feminine fashion.
    - blevs 6y ago
      Before she transitioned. You wouldn't refer to a gay person before they came out as straight, right?
      - anonunivgrad 6y ago
        I’m not up on what the latest orthodoxy on this is. But plenty of people have transitioned back and forth. And haven’t we also been told that gender is “fluid”?
        Pfhreak 6y ago
        I'm genderfluid. And gender is fluid for some people, but other folks have very fixed gender identities.
    - moate 6y ago
      Her evidence: she wrote and directed the film and is explaining her experience and intentions into the art she created. Yours: ... people lie sometimes? Why are you a more authoritative expert on this topic? If you don’t feel you are, can you point to someone who is that agrees with you (producers, actors, etc)? If you can’t, why does this artist explaining their artistic vision feel like something you need to disparage?
- moate 6y ago
  What? The creators of the movie are making a statement about their film. Are you saying they’re lying?
- bawolff 6y ago
  If you think its nonsense have the guts to argue why its nonsense. If its bs like you say it is, it shouldn't be difficult to argue based on the text of the movie that it is so.
  - axaxs 6y ago
    I'd start with the fact that it's 21 years later, and that the 'matrix is gender binary and agents are transphobes' makes zero sense to anyone who has seen the movie. Unless trans folk can slow time to dodge bullets, which would make me rethink my own gender I guess.
    - bawolff 6y ago
      The switch thing is not new. Here is a source from 2014 https://matrix.fandom.com/wiki/Switch?oldid=27170 https://matrix.fandom.com/wiki/Switch?oldid=27170 The agents are a stand in for authority, and cultural normativity. They literally kill anyone who refuses to follow the rules of the matrix. Its very easy to to see this as a stand in for a society that refuses to accept people who are different.
      - axaxs 6y ago
        That's still 15 years. Why not say, 2 or 3? This reminds me of a 'Han shot second' type thing. There's a million examples of creators lying after the fact. And if that was the real message, should not the 'real world' feel more beautiful and free than dystopian and depressing? I'm not trying to discredit the author as a person, trans people, or the ideals..just the movie.
        bawolff 6y ago
        It was the first thing i could find in google. I mean wikia didnt even exist as a company in 1999. > And if that was the real message, should not the 'real world' feel more beautiful and free than dystopian and depressing? On the contrary, i think that supports the message. I don't know what its like to be trans, but i'm pretty sure its not all rainbows and butterfly's. The characters in the matrix decide it is better to live as their authentic free self as opposed to being in the gilded cage of the matrix. I think that is a great metaphor for transitioning. > There's a million examples of creators lying after the fact. Fwiw, i do believe that a work should be considered separate from authorial intent, especially post-hoc authortorial intent. In this case, i think the work supports what the creators say, and its much more compelling than say harry potter where there is very little support in the text for the things jk rowling said later.
- leephillips 6y ago
  “At this point, they are mocking us.” It certainly comes across that way. It’s impossible to credit that whoever is writing these tweets believes this stuff. For example: “For years, fans of THE MATRIX have discussed the film through a trans lens.” No, they haven’t.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    I don't know how you can say that fans haven't discussed this movie through a trans lens. Like, a very cursory googling of articles over the past two decades indicates that yes, in fact, many fans have discussed the film through the trans lens.
  - alicemaz 6y ago
    >No, they haven’t. https://twitter.com/search?q=until%3A2015-01-01%20%22the%20matrix%22%20trans&src=typed_query&f=live https://twitter.com/search?q=until%3A2015-01-01%20%22the%20m... yes they have
    - chx 6y ago
      A lot (all I can find) of the early tweets are about an Indonesian TV called Trans TV. This https://twitter.com/Safarazzz/status/208335499281182720 https://twitter.com/Safarazzz/status/208335499281182720 is (one of?) the first on topic tweet from 2012. After that it's a flood: https://twitter.com/patienceinbee/status/225368805285691393 https://twitter.com/patienceinbee/status/225368805285691393 https://twitter.com/noellejoyeuse/status/228993592864165888 https://twitter.com/noellejoyeuse/status/228993592864165888 and these were before Lana came out as trans. And then https://twitter.com/ontologicalgeek/status/257477202730438656 https://twitter.com/ontologicalgeek/status/25747720273043865... https://twitter.com/linernotesdanny/status/257642532740161537 https://twitter.com/linernotesdanny/status/25764253274016153... and so forth and so forth. So yeah, people have noted this for at least eight years, probably on other forums even longer.
paulcole 6y ago
Fascinating article. Both the creator and the audience can have their own interpretations of the same story. I think Lilly’s is pretty easily defensible and makes a lot of sense.
sky_rw 6y ago
Just like in real life, the post transition sequels are disappointing.
thehoomanist 6y ago
“Metaphorically speaking, a person's ideas must be the building they live in—otherwise there is something terribly wrong.” — Søren Kierkegaard It seems to me that the Wachowskis are brave and coherent enough to just embrace this additional value in the original movie. Not surprised at all, once I read about it—it connects really well with the rest of the allegories in the movie.
ahmedm87 6y ago
I'm sure your grandfather is very proud.
ahmedm87 6y ago
For anyone who still doesn't get it, yes, they're jewish.
bobbydreamer 6y ago
There should be a law, sequels should come within 2-3 years. Cartoons were way better, so many episodes. Cartoon to movies taking too much time. Now Matrix it's long time for a sequel.
oceanghost 6y ago
I know I'm late to this discussion and nobody will see this, but, the Matrix is very clearly an exploration of the philosophy of Jean Baudrillard... Simulacra and Simulation (French: Simulacres et Simulation) is a 1981 philosophical treatise by the sociologist Jean Baudrillard, in which the author seeks to examine the relationships between reality, symbols, and society, in particular the significations and symbolism of culture and media involved in constructing an understanding of shared existence. Simulacra are copies that depict things that either had no original, or that no longer have an original.[1] Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation Neo even handles a copy in the first film: https://unfoldlearning.net/2016/09/11/beyond-modern-education-2/ https://unfoldlearning.net/2016/09/11/beyond-modern-educatio... Is this then a metaphor for being trans? That's awfully circuitous.

27 points by znpy 6y ago

adamnemecek 6y ago

This seems a little retconned, kind of like how J.K. Rowling says that Hermione was black and such.

moate 6y ago
JK Rowling seems like she’ll take any credit that people want to ascribe to her. The idea that the Wachowski sisters intended this meaning based on their experience but were overruled by the suits feels more legit based on who they are in the world.
chx 6y ago
Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24089549 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24089549 elsewhere. tl;dr: people tweeted eight years ago Matrix had trans themes at least or it's outright about being trans.

anonunivgrad 6y ago

Here are the ridiculous tweets from Netflix promoting this nonsense: https://twitter.com/NetflixFilm/status/1291439319245234177?s=20 https://twitter.com/NetflixFilm/status/1291439319245234177?s... At this point, they are mocking us. It’s incredible what bs you can churn out when everyone is scared to criticize you, lest they be canceled for being “transphobic”.

why_only_15 6y ago
this isn't some fan fiction or whatever this is literally the director of the movie. why do you think she's lying?
- anonunivgrad 6y ago
  Authors lie about their work all the time. A work stands on its own. Author statements, especially after the fact, are evidence. But because their reputations and public personas are uniquely tied to the work, they should be treated very skeptically. Especially if they concern a new political issue that more or less didn’t exist at the time the work came out. She is a transwoman best known for creating the Matrix, back when she was a man. She has plenty of reason to lie. Also, the theory and “evidence” is just patently absurd. Read those tweets for yourself.
  - sky_rw 6y ago
    And more importantly now known for creating nothing good since she adopted feminine fashion.
  - blevs 6y ago
    Before she transitioned. You wouldn't refer to a gay person before they came out as straight, right?
    - anonunivgrad 6y ago
      I’m not up on what the latest orthodoxy on this is. But plenty of people have transitioned back and forth. And haven’t we also been told that gender is “fluid”?
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        I'm genderfluid. And gender is fluid for some people, but other folks have very fixed gender identities.
  - moate 6y ago
    Her evidence: she wrote and directed the film and is explaining her experience and intentions into the art she created. Yours: ... people lie sometimes? Why are you a more authoritative expert on this topic? If you don’t feel you are, can you point to someone who is that agrees with you (producers, actors, etc)? If you can’t, why does this artist explaining their artistic vision feel like something you need to disparage?
moate 6y ago
What? The creators of the movie are making a statement about their film. Are you saying they’re lying?
bawolff 6y ago
If you think its nonsense have the guts to argue why its nonsense. If its bs like you say it is, it shouldn't be difficult to argue based on the text of the movie that it is so.
- axaxs 6y ago
  I'd start with the fact that it's 21 years later, and that the 'matrix is gender binary and agents are transphobes' makes zero sense to anyone who has seen the movie. Unless trans folk can slow time to dodge bullets, which would make me rethink my own gender I guess.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    The switch thing is not new. Here is a source from 2014 https://matrix.fandom.com/wiki/Switch?oldid=27170 https://matrix.fandom.com/wiki/Switch?oldid=27170 The agents are a stand in for authority, and cultural normativity. They literally kill anyone who refuses to follow the rules of the matrix. Its very easy to to see this as a stand in for a society that refuses to accept people who are different.
    - axaxs 6y ago
      That's still 15 years. Why not say, 2 or 3? This reminds me of a 'Han shot second' type thing. There's a million examples of creators lying after the fact. And if that was the real message, should not the 'real world' feel more beautiful and free than dystopian and depressing? I'm not trying to discredit the author as a person, trans people, or the ideals..just the movie.
      - bawolff 6y ago
        It was the first thing i could find in google. I mean wikia didnt even exist as a company in 1999. > And if that was the real message, should not the 'real world' feel more beautiful and free than dystopian and depressing? On the contrary, i think that supports the message. I don't know what its like to be trans, but i'm pretty sure its not all rainbows and butterfly's. The characters in the matrix decide it is better to live as their authentic free self as opposed to being in the gilded cage of the matrix. I think that is a great metaphor for transitioning. > There's a million examples of creators lying after the fact. Fwiw, i do believe that a work should be considered separate from authorial intent, especially post-hoc authortorial intent. In this case, i think the work supports what the creators say, and its much more compelling than say harry potter where there is very little support in the text for the things jk rowling said later.
leephillips 6y ago
“At this point, they are mocking us.” It certainly comes across that way. It’s impossible to credit that whoever is writing these tweets believes this stuff. For example: “For years, fans of THE MATRIX have discussed the film through a trans lens.” No, they haven’t.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  I don't know how you can say that fans haven't discussed this movie through a trans lens. Like, a very cursory googling of articles over the past two decades indicates that yes, in fact, many fans have discussed the film through the trans lens.
- alicemaz 6y ago
  >No, they haven’t. https://twitter.com/search?q=until%3A2015-01-01%20%22the%20matrix%22%20trans&src=typed_query&f=live https://twitter.com/search?q=until%3A2015-01-01%20%22the%20m... yes they have
  - chx 6y ago
    A lot (all I can find) of the early tweets are about an Indonesian TV called Trans TV. This https://twitter.com/Safarazzz/status/208335499281182720 https://twitter.com/Safarazzz/status/208335499281182720 is (one of?) the first on topic tweet from 2012. After that it's a flood: https://twitter.com/patienceinbee/status/225368805285691393 https://twitter.com/patienceinbee/status/225368805285691393 https://twitter.com/noellejoyeuse/status/228993592864165888 https://twitter.com/noellejoyeuse/status/228993592864165888 and these were before Lana came out as trans. And then https://twitter.com/ontologicalgeek/status/257477202730438656 https://twitter.com/ontologicalgeek/status/25747720273043865... https://twitter.com/linernotesdanny/status/257642532740161537 https://twitter.com/linernotesdanny/status/25764253274016153... and so forth and so forth. So yeah, people have noted this for at least eight years, probably on other forums even longer.

paulcole 6y ago

Fascinating article. Both the creator and the audience can have their own interpretations of the same story. I think Lilly’s is pretty easily defensible and makes a lot of sense.

sky_rw 6y ago

Just like in real life, the post transition sequels are disappointing.

thehoomanist 6y ago

“Metaphorically speaking, a person's ideas must be the building they live in—otherwise there is something terribly wrong.” — Søren Kierkegaard It seems to me that the Wachowskis are brave and coherent enough to just embrace this additional value in the original movie. Not surprised at all, once I read about it—it connects really well with the rest of the allegories in the movie.

ahmedm87 6y ago

I'm sure your grandfather is very proud.

ahmedm87 6y ago

For anyone who still doesn't get it, yes, they're jewish.

bobbydreamer 6y ago

There should be a law, sequels should come within 2-3 years. Cartoons were way better, so many episodes. Cartoon to movies taking too much time. Now Matrix it's long time for a sequel.

oceanghost 6y ago

I know I'm late to this discussion and nobody will see this, but, the Matrix is very clearly an exploration of the philosophy of Jean Baudrillard... Simulacra and Simulation (French: Simulacres et Simulation) is a 1981 philosophical treatise by the sociologist Jean Baudrillard, in which the author seeks to examine the relationships between reality, symbols, and society, in particular the significations and symbolism of culture and media involved in constructing an understanding of shared existence. Simulacra are copies that depict things that either had no original, or that no longer have an original.[1] Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulacra_and_Simulation Neo even handles a copy in the first film: https://unfoldlearning.net/2016/09/11/beyond-modern-education-2/ https://unfoldlearning.net/2016/09/11/beyond-modern-educatio... Is this then a metaphor for being trans? That's awfully circuitous.