8 ms·

Wow, my experience couldn't be more different. I think my biggest annoyance is how ⌘-Tab ignores different windows of the same program, so I constantly have to

Wow, my experience couldn't be more different. I think my biggest annoyance is how ⌘-Tab ignores different windows of the same program, so I constantly have to switch between ⌘-Tab and ⌘-`.

rktdno 6y ago
I would suggest that’s a feature, not a bug.
jiripospisil 6y ago
The funny thing is this is one of my favorite features, it keeps the switcher uncluttered. If you don't like it, you can use "Mission Control" (Control+Up Arrow) that will show you all windows across all applications (pressing Control+Down Arrow is the same but only within windows of the current application). You can also switch with Command+Tab and once you hover over the application you want, you can press Command+Down Arrow (or Up Arrow or even Key 1) and that will show you all windows within that application (the same as Control+Down Arrow). Notice that each window has a title and you can press the initial letter and that window will get focus. You can then press Enter to select it.
- mtrower 6y ago
  >Notice that each window has a title and you can press the initial letter and that window will get focus. You can then press Enter to select it. Oh, nice! Thanks for this.
- shuntress 6y ago
  This could be use case dependent but I find that as a developer, I frequently want to cycle between 3-5 windows in 2-3 applications. Text editor, 2-3 browser windows (generally: thing I am working on, browser dev-tools for the thing I am working on, and reference web-pages), and 1-2 terminal windows. In this specific use case, I found all the little differences between Windows and MacOS window switching to end up adding together in Window's favor fairly significantly.
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    On macOS you can cycle apps, the focused app’s windows and its tabs using cmd+tab, cmd+tilde and ctrl+tab respectively. Once that becomes natural it’s better than Windows’ plain alt+tab.
    - markussss 6y ago
      I understand how this works, but it's not better, especially not for multi monitor setups. Switching between three dev-tools, two browser windows, five terminals and an editor or two makes the Mac way a horrible way to work: First, select the application that you want to use now. All windows from that application, across all monitors are now brought to the front. Then, you switch to the window you want to use. Most of these windows have no clear way of communicating to the user that it is active, so you have to look at each of the available windows to see if it's active or not. Let's say that I have a monitor with three terminal windows on. I don't want to close them or minimize them, as I will need them again shortly. Now, I want to open a browser window above those three terminal windows, so I open it. Now, I want to move a single one of those terminal windows on top of the browser window, while keeping the other two below the browser window. Nope, not possible. On Mac, I have to use the mouse to pick the right terminal window to achieve this.
      - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
        Ok, I understand that. It does suck in these situations. But the higher granularity also has situations in which it is beneficial. It probably just depends on your particular workflows whether the good outweighs the bad or the other way around.
    - shuntress 6y ago
      Sibling comment pretty much covers my feelings on this but I want stress the main point and add a couple minor notes. My main point is that a window is a window. The app to which that window belongs means essentially nothing to me, I don't think there needs to be a separate hot-key for cycling windows-per-application, I do not find it to be a usefull organizational tool for switching between windows. I am aware of ctrl+tab but that seems to be a generally accepted program-level control not something from the operating system level. Minor annoyances: MacOS's cmd+tab visualization has a slight delay before appearing. This seems to be intentional and provides a nice experience when you know for certain that the selected window of the previously selected application is what you want to switch to; quickly tapping cmd+tab switches directly to that window without the visualization. On windows, the alt+tab visualization always renders immediately. I prefer the windows way because frequently the window I want is maybe 2 or 3 back. So I can more quickly locate it visually through the visualization that pops up on alt+tab. On MacOS, that visualization I just mentioned does not have separate selection for mouse/keyboard in the cmd+tab menu. What this means is that if an errant mouse cursor passes the visualization while you are cmd+tab'ing to some application, the mouse will scramble your selection. On Windows, there are two separate selectors, one for alt+tab (confirmed by releasing alt) and one for mouse selection (standard point + click). MacOS does support both mouse and keyboard but they share the same selection and interfere with eachother. I know this sounds like an unlikely case but I actually find it quite common -- moving the cursor towards the anticipated area of interest in the soon-to-be-focused window while alt+tabbing will frequently pass through the area of the screen where the alt+tab visualization renders. Why doesn't MacOS have an intuitve way to maximize a window? This drives me insane. It really feels very reasonable to me to want to see the system clock/tray/etc but have a window take up all other available space. This really feels like a fundamental window-control interaction to me and it is not the same as full screen. I do not understand why MacOS does not have this and why it does not seem to bother other people.
wayneftw 6y ago
Yeah Apple is woefully behind as I see it. The window management is clunky and backwards and the keyboard shortcuts being lauded here are too. They get even the simplest things wrong. Instead of labeling app menu items with a word or abbreviation, they use a freaking symbol that isn’t printed anywhere on the keyboard. They have more 2-handed / 3+ key shortcuts than any other OS despite lacking the ability to let you control every aspect of the macOS GUI like you can with Windows or most Linux DEs. It’s laughable to me that anyone thinks it’s a good system and I’d love to see a productivity contest between workers who are experts in their respective OSes. Mac people would lose miserably. There’s no doubt in mind after years of working with and watching Mac users pitiful attempts at doing anything quickly or efficiently.
- snazz 6y ago
  The modifier key symbols are printed on most modern Apple keyboards. See the Magic Keyboard, for example. > They have more 2-handed / 3+ key shortcuts than any other OS despite lacking the ability to let you control every aspect of the macOS GUI like you can with Windows or most Linux DEs. What are you trying to say here with “every aspect”? Mac window management is the opposite of tiling window management. Windows is some sort of hybrid with the snap-to functionality. I wouldn’t say that one or the other is more effective or efficient—Mac trackpad gestures for switching between virtual desktops definitely beat alt-tabbing in Windows (although Windows 10 now finally has virtual desktops as well). They’re different workflows that you can’t expect to immediately find familiar. A “productivity contest” would likely show nearly identical results on both operating systems for the kinds of tasks that users do on a daily basis because they’ve already gotten used to doing those tasks. Switching between terminal windows, text editors, and web browsers is pretty fast on both Windows and macOS.
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    I am looking at my MacBook Pro 2015 right now. There is no symbol for the alt key. You cannot control the entirety of macOS with just a keyboard. Simple example: open the About this Mac window. Now switch away from it with the keyboard. I challenge you to switch back to that window with just the keyboard without installing any third-party software that changes the way that you handle window switching. Same goes for any window that you open from an app that is running in the menu bar. With better operating systems, I can put focus on and work with any aspect of the GUI. macOS is extremely limited in this area. They don’t even have an easily discoverable process for hunting through app menus with just the keyboard. On Windows, there is a thing called a keyboard acceleration. It happens when you hit alt plus the underlined letter of a menu item. This is why users with disabilities, like Stephen Hawking have historically used Windows and not Mac.
lanstein 6y ago
For Zoom, that home/launcher screen can be closed so you can switch to your video without having to do the above. Realized that after being annoyed for weeks.
js2 6y ago
You might like Witch: https://manytricks.com/witch/ https://manytricks.com/witch/
- mindfulhack 6y ago
  I find HyperSwitch to be better more useful interface compared to Witch, because it retains the whole thumbnails look: https://bahoom.com/hyperswitch https://bahoom.com/hyperswitch Its developer hasn't been updating it or fixing bugs for a long time now, but it remains the best 'alt-tab' for macOS in my book.
  - ramenmeal 6y ago
    Great app but it's pretty buggy. command+tab to an app that has multiple windwos and then command + window number crashes for me, which seems like one of the primary features. Seems like alt+tab directly to the window works though.
    - skinnymuch 6y ago
      I tried the open source https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app which mentions HyperSwitch among others. It was fine. Though I only tested it briefly.
      - mindfulhack 6y ago
        Awesome! Finally some alternatives! I'll try it and switch to that GPL project if it's a better app! Thanks for sharing. Update: AltTab is already better and exactly what one wants from an alt-tab, and best of all, FOSS and actively in development on Github. It's got some small bugs to iron out but none that are dealbreakers for me. PERFECT, thank you.
        skinnymuch 6y ago
        That is awesome! I didn’t try it yet. Just saw the nice vibe of creator and the license. Glad you like it. Trying to soon foray into consulting/coaching including [productivity enhancing] apps and workflows. This is a nice boost before going to sleep.
rangera 6y ago
I recommend changing the ⌘-` shortcut to ⌘-§, which is right above Tab on Mac keyboards (Preferences > Keyboard > Shortcuts > Keyboard > Move focus to next window). Having both in the same area of the keyboard makes my brain happy.
- TheCoreh 6y ago
  Just out of curiosity, what keyboard layout do you have? On US keyboards ⌘-` is right above tab, and in fact my keyboard doesn't even have a § key.
  - bewuethr 6y ago
    Swiss and German layouts have the § key above the tab key.
    - Hackbraten 6y ago
      German layouts have the ° key above the Tab key.
  - CiaranMcNulty 6y ago
    UK has § in the top left above tab
- tolle 6y ago
  That depends on the keyboard layout. ⌘-` with an US layout is equivalent to ⌘-§ in almost all other layouts.
robertoandred 6y ago
The system-wide acknowledgement that applications and windows are different things is one of main Mac advantages.
deergomoo 6y ago
I prefer this personally, but what does annoy me is that ⌘+` doesn't work with any windows that are fullscreened. I don't use it often, but when I do it's annoying to lose all keyboard navigation. I use an app called Contexts which hijacks ⌘+` with extra functionality (and includes fullscreen windows), but it seems to be abandoned so I fear it will stop working eventually.
- com2kid 6y ago
  Contexts is the sole app that makes MacOS usable IMHO. It makes alt-tab not suck. It lets me search to switch apps. It lets me switch back to minimized apps. It is really is the perfect utility.

Wow, my experience couldn't be more different. I think my biggest annoyance is how ⌘-Tab ignores different windows of the same program, so I constantly have to switch between ⌘-Tab and ⌘-`.

rktdno 6y ago

I would suggest that’s a feature, not a bug.

jiripospisil 6y ago

The funny thing is this is one of my favorite features, it keeps the switcher uncluttered. If you don't like it, you can use "Mission Control" (Control+Up Arrow) that will show you all windows across all applications (pressing Control+Down Arrow is the same but only within windows of the current application). You can also switch with Command+Tab and once you hover over the application you want, you can press Command+Down Arrow (or Up Arrow or even Key 1) and that will show you all windows within that application (the same as Control+Down Arrow). Notice that each window has a title and you can press the initial letter and that window will get focus. You can then press Enter to select it.

mtrower 6y ago
>Notice that each window has a title and you can press the initial letter and that window will get focus. You can then press Enter to select it. Oh, nice! Thanks for this.
shuntress 6y ago
This could be use case dependent but I find that as a developer, I frequently want to cycle between 3-5 windows in 2-3 applications. Text editor, 2-3 browser windows (generally: thing I am working on, browser dev-tools for the thing I am working on, and reference web-pages), and 1-2 terminal windows. In this specific use case, I found all the little differences between Windows and MacOS window switching to end up adding together in Window's favor fairly significantly.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  On macOS you can cycle apps, the focused app’s windows and its tabs using cmd+tab, cmd+tilde and ctrl+tab respectively. Once that becomes natural it’s better than Windows’ plain alt+tab.
  - markussss 6y ago
    I understand how this works, but it's not better, especially not for multi monitor setups. Switching between three dev-tools, two browser windows, five terminals and an editor or two makes the Mac way a horrible way to work: First, select the application that you want to use now. All windows from that application, across all monitors are now brought to the front. Then, you switch to the window you want to use. Most of these windows have no clear way of communicating to the user that it is active, so you have to look at each of the available windows to see if it's active or not. Let's say that I have a monitor with three terminal windows on. I don't want to close them or minimize them, as I will need them again shortly. Now, I want to open a browser window above those three terminal windows, so I open it. Now, I want to move a single one of those terminal windows on top of the browser window, while keeping the other two below the browser window. Nope, not possible. On Mac, I have to use the mouse to pick the right terminal window to achieve this.
    - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
      Ok, I understand that. It does suck in these situations. But the higher granularity also has situations in which it is beneficial. It probably just depends on your particular workflows whether the good outweighs the bad or the other way around.
  - shuntress 6y ago
    Sibling comment pretty much covers my feelings on this but I want stress the main point and add a couple minor notes. My main point is that a window is a window. The app to which that window belongs means essentially nothing to me, I don't think there needs to be a separate hot-key for cycling windows-per-application, I do not find it to be a usefull organizational tool for switching between windows. I am aware of ctrl+tab but that seems to be a generally accepted program-level control not something from the operating system level. Minor annoyances: MacOS's cmd+tab visualization has a slight delay before appearing. This seems to be intentional and provides a nice experience when you know for certain that the selected window of the previously selected application is what you want to switch to; quickly tapping cmd+tab switches directly to that window without the visualization. On windows, the alt+tab visualization always renders immediately. I prefer the windows way because frequently the window I want is maybe 2 or 3 back. So I can more quickly locate it visually through the visualization that pops up on alt+tab. On MacOS, that visualization I just mentioned does not have separate selection for mouse/keyboard in the cmd+tab menu. What this means is that if an errant mouse cursor passes the visualization while you are cmd+tab'ing to some application, the mouse will scramble your selection. On Windows, there are two separate selectors, one for alt+tab (confirmed by releasing alt) and one for mouse selection (standard point + click). MacOS does support both mouse and keyboard but they share the same selection and interfere with eachother. I know this sounds like an unlikely case but I actually find it quite common -- moving the cursor towards the anticipated area of interest in the soon-to-be-focused window while alt+tabbing will frequently pass through the area of the screen where the alt+tab visualization renders. Why doesn't MacOS have an intuitve way to maximize a window? This drives me insane. It really feels very reasonable to me to want to see the system clock/tray/etc but have a window take up all other available space. This really feels like a fundamental window-control interaction to me and it is not the same as full screen. I do not understand why MacOS does not have this and why it does not seem to bother other people.

wayneftw 6y ago

Yeah Apple is woefully behind as I see it. The window management is clunky and backwards and the keyboard shortcuts being lauded here are too. They get even the simplest things wrong. Instead of labeling app menu items with a word or abbreviation, they use a freaking symbol that isn’t printed anywhere on the keyboard. They have more 2-handed / 3+ key shortcuts than any other OS despite lacking the ability to let you control every aspect of the macOS GUI like you can with Windows or most Linux DEs. It’s laughable to me that anyone thinks it’s a good system and I’d love to see a productivity contest between workers who are experts in their respective OSes. Mac people would lose miserably. There’s no doubt in mind after years of working with and watching Mac users pitiful attempts at doing anything quickly or efficiently.

snazz 6y ago
The modifier key symbols are printed on most modern Apple keyboards. See the Magic Keyboard, for example. > They have more 2-handed / 3+ key shortcuts than any other OS despite lacking the ability to let you control every aspect of the macOS GUI like you can with Windows or most Linux DEs. What are you trying to say here with “every aspect”? Mac window management is the opposite of tiling window management. Windows is some sort of hybrid with the snap-to functionality. I wouldn’t say that one or the other is more effective or efficient—Mac trackpad gestures for switching between virtual desktops definitely beat alt-tabbing in Windows (although Windows 10 now finally has virtual desktops as well). They’re different workflows that you can’t expect to immediately find familiar. A “productivity contest” would likely show nearly identical results on both operating systems for the kinds of tasks that users do on a daily basis because they’ve already gotten used to doing those tasks. Switching between terminal windows, text editors, and web browsers is pretty fast on both Windows and macOS.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  I am looking at my MacBook Pro 2015 right now. There is no symbol for the alt key. You cannot control the entirety of macOS with just a keyboard. Simple example: open the About this Mac window. Now switch away from it with the keyboard. I challenge you to switch back to that window with just the keyboard without installing any third-party software that changes the way that you handle window switching. Same goes for any window that you open from an app that is running in the menu bar. With better operating systems, I can put focus on and work with any aspect of the GUI. macOS is extremely limited in this area. They don’t even have an easily discoverable process for hunting through app menus with just the keyboard. On Windows, there is a thing called a keyboard acceleration. It happens when you hit alt plus the underlined letter of a menu item. This is why users with disabilities, like Stephen Hawking have historically used Windows and not Mac.

lanstein 6y ago

For Zoom, that home/launcher screen can be closed so you can switch to your video without having to do the above. Realized that after being annoyed for weeks.

js2 6y ago

You might like Witch: https://manytricks.com/witch/ https://manytricks.com/witch/

mindfulhack 6y ago
I find HyperSwitch to be better more useful interface compared to Witch, because it retains the whole thumbnails look: https://bahoom.com/hyperswitch https://bahoom.com/hyperswitch Its developer hasn't been updating it or fixing bugs for a long time now, but it remains the best 'alt-tab' for macOS in my book.
- ramenmeal 6y ago
  Great app but it's pretty buggy. command+tab to an app that has multiple windwos and then command + window number crashes for me, which seems like one of the primary features. Seems like alt+tab directly to the window works though.
  - skinnymuch 6y ago
    I tried the open source https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app which mentions HyperSwitch among others. It was fine. Though I only tested it briefly.
    - mindfulhack 6y ago
      Awesome! Finally some alternatives! I'll try it and switch to that GPL project if it's a better app! Thanks for sharing. Update: AltTab is already better and exactly what one wants from an alt-tab, and best of all, FOSS and actively in development on Github. It's got some small bugs to iron out but none that are dealbreakers for me. PERFECT, thank you.
      - skinnymuch 6y ago
        That is awesome! I didn’t try it yet. Just saw the nice vibe of creator and the license. Glad you like it. Trying to soon foray into consulting/coaching including [productivity enhancing] apps and workflows. This is a nice boost before going to sleep.

rangera 6y ago

I recommend changing the ⌘-` shortcut to ⌘-§, which is right above Tab on Mac keyboards (Preferences > Keyboard > Shortcuts > Keyboard > Move focus to next window). Having both in the same area of the keyboard makes my brain happy.

TheCoreh 6y ago
Just out of curiosity, what keyboard layout do you have? On US keyboards ⌘-` is right above tab, and in fact my keyboard doesn't even have a § key.
- bewuethr 6y ago
  Swiss and German layouts have the § key above the tab key.
  - Hackbraten 6y ago
    German layouts have the ° key above the Tab key.
- CiaranMcNulty 6y ago
  UK has § in the top left above tab
tolle 6y ago
That depends on the keyboard layout. ⌘-` with an US layout is equivalent to ⌘-§ in almost all other layouts.

robertoandred 6y ago

The system-wide acknowledgement that applications and windows are different things is one of main Mac advantages.

deergomoo 6y ago

I prefer this personally, but what does annoy me is that ⌘+` doesn't work with any windows that are fullscreened. I don't use it often, but when I do it's annoying to lose all keyboard navigation. I use an app called Contexts which hijacks ⌘+` with extra functionality (and includes fullscreen windows), but it seems to be abandoned so I fear it will stop working eventually.

com2kid 6y ago
Contexts is the sole app that makes MacOS usable IMHO. It makes alt-tab not suck. It lets me search to switch apps. It lets me switch back to minimized apps. It is really is the perfect utility.